Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned • Hacker News Board

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#121

Post by efrecon » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

ikt wrote: post #106

swman wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly do we really need cryptocurrency? I don’t want my transactions public. I like exchanging cash for weed (legal in California) and nobody needs to know regardless. I also don’t understand what’s wrong with USD. I grew up in a third world country so maybe it could help people there but in USA? I’m happy with the dollar fluctuations vs four digit fluctuations daily. Can someone give me a good explain?

you don't use crypto do you? playing with money is honestly just a fun thing to do, putting it into coins you think will do well or staking it to earn more or lending it via defi, or putting it into a yearn vault etc the other thing is that (for the 9 billionth time) people are clueless and associating all of crypto with bitcoin. There are tons of chains that aren't proof of work and there's also nothing suggesting p…

But the problem isn't that it can use renewable, but rather "steels" renewable that could be used for other purposes

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#122

Post by SiempreViernes » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

BoardsOfCanada wrote: post #23

The background is this: The Swedish government (of which the green party is part) has closed down several nuclear reactors and there is a ban on building more hydro electric dams. Before Sweden had about 50% hydro + 50% nuclear. Now electricity prices are rising a lot, especially on days when there is little wind (which generally is the case on extremely cold winter days), and emergency power plants using fossil fuel…

No, what the current government has done is not object in 2015 when the commercial owners decided to permanently turn off in total three reactors in Ringhals and Oscarshamn because electricity was just too cheap.

The actual problem is a regional on: the most souther parts of sweden is that they have more connections to the energy market in continental europe than to the big hydro-plants in the north that have plenty of excess capacity. In fact Sweden is a net exporter of electricity even in times where the emergency plants in the extreme south are running.

And water+nuclear has been at around 80% total, not 100.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#123

Post by HamburgerEmoji » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

speedgoose wrote: post #95

louloulou wrote: post #47

Ah, the electricity police strike again. You're allowed to use the electricity you paid for for some computations, but not for others. Seems logical and enforceable.

Well, yes.

Please furnish a comprehensive list of your uses of electricity. We'd like to go through it and see which of them are wasteful. We'll let you know which ones you won't be allowed to do anymore.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#124

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

ninepoints wrote: post #97

swman wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly do we really need cryptocurrency? I don’t want my transactions public. I like exchanging cash for weed (legal in California) and nobody needs to know regardless. I also don’t understand what’s wrong with USD. I grew up in a third world country so maybe it could help people there but in USA? I’m happy with the dollar fluctuations vs four digit fluctuations daily. Can someone give me a good explain?

The explanation is simply that there are people that have bought in that want others to buy in also so they can liquidate for a profit. Meanwhile, others are susceptible to what amounts to FOMO-driven investment. The same sentiment that drove the beanie-baby craze, the dot-com boom, the subprime mortgage crisis, the current metaverse craze, and so on. Nothing new under the sun.

>there are people that have bought in that want others to buy in also so they can liquidate for a profit.

Is that any different than a ponzi/pyramid scheme?

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#125

Post by ur-whale » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

azaras wrote: post #90

ur-whale wrote: post #49

For a somewhat decent counter-argument to this pov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-7dMVcVWgc

A bitcoin cult documentary. It is a fairy tale what it is said is absurd.

> It is a fairy tale what it is said is absurd.

I find myself swayed in my convictions by your well constructed argument.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#126

Post by opaov » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 9:15 AM UTC

seu wrote: post #3

"If we were to allow extensive mining of crypto-assets in Sweden, there is a risk that the renewable energy available to us will be insufficient to cover the required climate transition that we need to make. This energy is urgently required for the development of fossil-free steel, large-scale battery manufacturing and the electrification of our transport sector. Based on estimates from Cambridge University, it is cu…

Meanwhile the bitcoin marketing mega machine is going into over drive. Full/Front page ads in newspapers, targeted campaigns on the most misguided, propping up talking heads and influencers, 24*7 sms bombardment in countries all over the world offering free coins, games and wallets to rope in more and more people who have clue about anything. Show growth. Get funds to buy more marketing, target the most ignorant, produce more growth, rinse and repeat. The whole process is like a death sprial that gets more effecient every year.

The marketing industry has turned into such a global exploitative scam with the tools that have today.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#127

Post by lordnacho » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 9:15 AM UTC

seu wrote: post #3

"If we were to allow extensive mining of crypto-assets in Sweden, there is a risk that the renewable energy available to us will be insufficient to cover the required climate transition that we need to make. This energy is urgently required for the development of fossil-free steel, large-scale battery manufacturing and the electrification of our transport sector. Based on estimates from Cambridge University, it is cu…

The thing is it doesn't matter whether there are a few miners or a lot. Bitcoin will continue to mine a block every 10 minutes. It's like an energy sink, you can drip in tiny amounts and get the same, or you can pour in all future fusion power plants, you get the same.

So actually it won't affect bitcoin, but it will release the energy to other uses.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#128

Post by progre » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 9:16 AM UTC

vadfa wrote: post #29

seu wrote: post #3

"If we were to allow extensive mining of crypto-assets in Sweden, there is a risk that the renewable energy available to us will be insufficient to cover the required climate transition that we need to make. This energy is urgently required for the development of fossil-free steel, large-scale battery manufacturing and the electrification of our transport sector. Based on estimates from Cambridge University, it is cu…

Nuclear is clean and sustainable and can allow people to mine bitcoin and even heat their homes, which seems to be a problem currently in some regions of Europe.

As someone living near one of europes largest uranium deposits, i can tell you that nuclear itself might be clean, but getting the fuel is anything but. Uranium dont come in nice nuggets like gold, its mixed up with other things so that its only fractions of grams per ton of rock you have to mine. When this rock is processed we are left with big holes in the ground that shifts the level of the waterbed, and big piles of toxic rock dust that leaks all kinds of nasty shit into said ground water.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#129

Post by dcanelhas » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 9:16 AM UTC

Ekaros wrote: post #28

As person living in country with ties to Scandinavian grid. I see this as very positive. I could argue that current market price situation could even be worse if crypto miners were allowed to externalize their energy cost to rest of society. That is by applying high demand the hydro would have less stored capacity available. Which kinda is currently part of the price problem. They lower the stored capacity and pay ch…

Good point, the Danish wind power is partly made viable due to interconnection with the swedish grid and its hydro power, which can generate on demand to even out the production. We sometimes see the spot price go negative when there is an excess of wind. In those cases the optimal routing of energy is essentially going through as much wire as possible, to incur transmission losses. I don't think the excess energy should be used for crypto though, it would be better to pump water back up into the reservoirs.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#130

Post by mytailorisrich » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 9:17 AM UTC

seu wrote: post #3

"If we were to allow extensive mining of crypto-assets in Sweden, there is a risk that the renewable energy available to us will be insufficient to cover the required climate transition that we need to make. This energy is urgently required for the development of fossil-free steel, large-scale battery manufacturing and the electrification of our transport sector. Based on estimates from Cambridge University, it is cu…

It is a very slippery slope, though, when a small group of people starts deciding what use of electricity is allowed.

Also, I think it is absolutely BS to claim that allowing bitcoin mining equals not "letting society transition to a more sustainable future".

If electricity production is constrained then this should be addressed generally on both demand and supply sides instead of essentially finding scapegoats.

(I don't like bitcoin, by the way, but it's not a reason to go over the top)