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Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

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Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#61

Post by FDSGSG »

skohan wrote: post #58
FDSGSG wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using clean energy for anything still increases the total demand for electricity which is going to result in more dirty energy production no matter what.

Yeah fine, but then it's still completely consistent that if your goal is to decrease overall energy consumption, you would find ways to curtail energy intensive activities which provide little social value.

You don't have any credible argument against a real carbon tax, do you? Only an utter clown would waste time bikeshedding about cryptocurrencies when you could focus on real solutions.

E: Can't reply below, but here's a very real argument for you. It's completely absurd to bikeshed about banning an activity that doesn't even exist in Sweden at any meaningful scale. Discussing whether or not Sweden should ban cryptomining is utterly pointless when nobody is (planning to start) mining in Sweden at any significant scale.

It really does matter what government officials spend their time on, this is an utter waste. To suggest that they're doing a good thing here is just incredible.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#62

Post by louloulou »

rebuilder wrote: post #42
VMG wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This merely pushes Bitcoin mining to countries that do not have this kind of regulation (and probably have less renewable energy).

It would still raise the cost of mining. And those countries that do not ban mining will face increasing pressure to do so, due to miners pushing energy prices up. But yes, an international treaty banning PoW crypto mining would be more effective. Then confiscate the equipment and use it to attack the networks.

How about an international treaty instituting a carbon tax, if C02 is what you actually want to minimize. Sounds like that's not the goal based on your comment though.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#63

Post by vadfa »

thg wrote: post #50
vadfa wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear is clean and sustainable and can allow people to mine bitcoin and even heat their homes, which seems to be a problem currently in some regions of Europe.

Nuclear is also a dead technology you can't have a rational discussion about, sadly. Much the same as GMOs.

The elites are working hard on impoverishing the average citizen as much as possible, and a very reliable way is to increase the price of power and food in the name of "ecology".

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#64

Post by gefhfff »

vadfa wrote: post #29
seu wrote: post #3

"If we were to allow extensive mining of crypto-assets in Sweden, there is a risk that the renewable energy available to us will be insufficient to cover the required climate transition that we need to make. This energy is urgently required for the development of fossil-free steel, large-scale battery manufacturing and the electrification of our transport sector. Based on estimates from Cambridge University, it is cu…

Nuclear is clean and sustainable and can allow people to mine bitcoin and even heat their homes, which seems to be a problem currently in some regions of Europe.

Stop the crap. Nuclear is neither clean (long term waste problem) nor a solution (building nuclear plants will take too long) And even less does it make sense to waste resources on mining hardware as well as mining farms that produce heat just as a by product. "Heating their homes" is as likely as Santa being real

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#65

Post by raverbashing »

VMG wrote: post #35
seu wrote: post #3

"If we were to allow extensive mining of crypto-assets in Sweden, there is a risk that the renewable energy available to us will be insufficient to cover the required climate transition that we need to make. This energy is urgently required for the development of fossil-free steel, large-scale battery manufacturing and the electrification of our transport sector. Based on estimates from Cambridge University, it is cu…

This merely pushes Bitcoin mining to countries that do not have this kind of regulation (and probably have less renewable energy).

Sure, let them go ahead. Then see what happens when they start having blackouts (or other problems).

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#66

Post by devoutsalsa »

VMG wrote: post #35
seu wrote: post #3

"If we were to allow extensive mining of crypto-assets in Sweden, there is a risk that the renewable energy available to us will be insufficient to cover the required climate transition that we need to make. This energy is urgently required for the development of fossil-free steel, large-scale battery manufacturing and the electrification of our transport sector. Based on estimates from Cambridge University, it is cu…

This merely pushes Bitcoin mining to countries that do not have this kind of regulation (and probably have less renewable energy).

Then let’s ban this waste of electricity everywhere. I’m all for the idea of crypto currency, but I’m not in support or baking the planet just so a few people can get some virtual goods.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#67

Post by agilob »

VMG wrote: post #27
jakozaur wrote: post #9

Proof of work for mining should pay hefty carbon tax. Various other industry already pay that tax, why not mining crypto? Crypto fans make various claims, so lets check that. E.g. Any new etherum block carbon footprint would be verified through oracle and smart contracts. Based on that it will be subject to tax that will go to carbon-capture companies. With that incentive, crypto could innovate to better methods and…

This is nonsensical. If you want to tax carbon, tax it regardless what it is used for. What you are describing penalizes somebody who uses clean energy for mining and ignores somebody who uses coal power for running his bot farm.

>If you want to tax carbon, tax it regardless what it is used for.

And this will happen, we will pay carbon tax for meat, electricity and electronics. I would like to get a tax discount for planting trees too, but we know that's now how governments work.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#68

Post by skohan »

tshaddox wrote: post #46
skohan wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the current environment, you can't separate energy usage from energy generation in terms of externalities. Electrical power is something like a fungible asset, so even if you are using 100% green power (which doesn't really exist), you're still increasing demand for electricity overall, which will result in more carbon-intensive power generation in general. In other words, decreasing power consumption is as import…

Electrical power is only fungible in that sense if significant negative externalities exist which allow units of energy to be priced similarly when their sources vary significantly in total (including societal) costs. If societal costs are internalized (i.e. externalities are eliminated) then fungibility would surely disappear, because a unit of energy produced from coal would surely be more expensive than a unit of…

Is this a distinction without a difference? If the climate impact of mining were truly priced in, is there any chance this activity would be remotely profitable?

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#69

Post by DeusExMachina »

JustinVx wrote: post #52
vadfa wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear is clean and sustainable and can allow people to mine bitcoin and even heat their homes, which seems to be a problem currently in some regions of Europe.

Nuclear doesn’t produce any greenhouse gasses, but with the radioactive waste it generates it of course isn’t really clean. It’s also expensive and takes decades to build.

That waste is much easier to dispose that the waste created by "renewables" like solar panels, especially with newer generation plants that burn old nuclear waste.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#70

Post by FDSGSG »

agilob wrote: post #67
VMG wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nonsensical. If you want to tax carbon, tax it regardless what it is used for. What you are describing penalizes somebody who uses clean energy for mining and ignores somebody who uses coal power for running his bot farm.

>If you want to tax carbon, tax it regardless what it is used for. And this will happen, we will pay carbon tax for meat, electricity and electronics. I would like to get a tax discount for planting trees too, but we know that's now how governments work.

At least in theory the government should benefit from economies of scale and do a much better job at planting trees than you ever could.
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