Live data from Hacker News

Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art

jacobinmag.com

31–40 of 64 posts

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art

#31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big problem with things like Warhammer and Magic (Magic being a more serious example) is there you really need a "dictator" who decides how "powerful" everything is, and can ban / weaken things which turn out to be broken. That type of thing seems consistently hard to do in open-source.

Dota managed to do it though. There were hundreds of dota versions people made and played before the origin of the modern day dota (called DotA allstars since it was a mesh of the favourite things from the other versions) appeared and everyone settled on it. Edit: And the reason new dota versions stopped appearing after that is that the mapmaking community learned how to prevent people from opening and looking at the…

It was however only after DotA was handed[0] to the design/balancing BDFL IceFrog where it became the competitive game that we think of today. Before that, it was really just another yet popular "fun-map". He took advice from the best players and a trusted circle, but was known to have the last word on things.

There is something to say about the quality of a competitive game that is balanced around hardcore play versus a game that is balanced around a profit motive.

[0] I don't remember how the transition came to be.

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art

#32

This sounds more like a problem with taking a company public than it does with capitalism in general. When your company isn't beholden to shareholders, you're generally more welcome to do anything you want with it, including focusing on "artistic integrity" for as long as you like. However, you also don't have access to the monopoly money that seems to get generated when taking your company public. I suspect the sire…

>This sounds more like a problem with taking a company public than it does with capitalism in general

I don't disagree, but it's sort of difficult to disentangle the incentives to take a company public from "capitalism in general", at least as it's practiced in the world today.

I'd point to Valve as the paradigmatic example of "not-evil corporation", precisely because it's GabeN's private hat empire and he can do things like fund the big unwieldy rocket of Steam Machines, which can then jettison the much more capable craft of Proton -- neither of which The Shareholders would have been comfortable with.

Would there have been pressure to go public and become normal if Valve didn't have access to Steam's money-printer? How about if Valve's charismatic hat-emperor was no longer at the helm? Maybe so, but I think that suggesting that "the sirens call of "infinite wealth"" can corrupt anyone is capitalist apologism when there are strong counterexamples in similar forms of expression. Moreover, suggesting the mere act of going public generates "monopoly money" and "infinite wealth", suitable to corrupt even the most principled, strikes me as parroting a just-so story about vulture capitalism's obvious unstoppable dominion.

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art

#33
Dnd the ruleset can't make much money IMO. But world's,like the forgotten realms or the rival Pathfinder's inner sea make plenty of money.

These story settings make more than enough to expand upon rules (psyonics, epic games, etc) in a kinda-sorta story related reason.

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art

#34
post #25
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you could argue that there would be no D&D were it not for capitalism in the first place. This is a fascinating thing for me to read because it is brought up every single time someone points out how capitalism encouraging the profit motive over anything else negatively impacts something. It's also incredibly sad though, as the concept of creating things out of pure joy seems like such an alien concept to some peopl…

> What's so special about D&D that makes it so it could only be created in an economic system where the person who created it would face poverty if they didn't? Pretty sure he would have created D&D anyway, yes. But if not for capitalism he likely wouldn't have done the work to standardize and share D&D with the world and instead just kept it as his own homebrew campaign rules. Today it would be easier, but back then…

I know you're not arguing this, but for the sake of expanding into the following point:

There have been plenty of games and other creative projects that became successful ignoring or even despite the economic system.

In fact I would argue that many of the most artistic games that had the most positive impact on me personally were made because they simply had to be made.

I'm not a fan of table top games (haven't tried them seriously enough) but I could give you a long list of computer games that are just oozing of passion, artistry, profound insights and deep respect for both their craft and their players. A good portion were successful financially, but certainly not all of them.

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art

#35
post #2

I've never been a part of any of those fandoms, but it was always curious to me how open-source alternatives didn't obliterate things like Warhammer, Magic cards, or things like that. I guess it being a proprietary IP makes it easier to keep a "standard" version of the game, but there should be some way to agree to a certain rules and avoid paying most of the price.

Open-source still struggles with quality and consistency -- two things important in a medium where aesthetics are important. That said, access to low-cost, high-resolution 3D printers (specifically resin-based printers) has enabled an explosion of the open-source Warhammer community (see https://www.reddit.com/r/PrintedWarhammer/ for one example) -- and oddly, it's exactly the free market that is allowing this to flo…

https://www.thingiverse.com/devonjones/collections/openforge

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art

#36
post #30
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's so special about D&D that makes it so it could only be created in an economic system where the person who created it would face poverty if they didn't? Pretty sure he would have created D&D anyway, yes. But if not for capitalism he likely wouldn't have done the work to standardize and share D&D with the world and instead just kept it as his own homebrew campaign rules. Today it would be easier, but back then…

Why is that? Sure, the game wouldn't be as popular without marketing, but information traveled before we had people dedicating their lives to making you click links. For proof of that, you just need to look at Tetris. It spread so quickly that it had to be banned from universities. Tetris' history does bring up other issues, but spread of information is not one of them.

Tetris came a decade later so computers were more common and floppy disks were a thing making it easy to copy and share information.

Not to mention all the reasons why a book of roleplaying rules has less memetic potential than a small quick to play single player game. Today with good screens and internet it is plausible, pretty sure there already are such systems out there, but it couldn't have happened in the 70's and I'm pretty sure it would never happen in the 80's either.

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art

#37

Nothing in this article justifies the title. Broadly their primary complaints seem to be that Hasbro is selling anything aside from a core rule set (or really anything), and that the founders of TSR were slowly pushed out. These somehow means that art is killed. The D&D founder weren't gods. If they wanted complete control, they could have not sold their company. Or once they were out of it, they could have filed off…

The article is just a mess and contradicts itself. The “main game itself remains largely moribund” even though it’s more popular than it’s ever been. What definition of “moribund” are they using? If it’s “moribund” because of lack of updates, that is first of all not true, but also would just be criticized by the author as “extracting as much money from consumers as possible through… constant upselling”. A comment the author made literally the sentence before the “moribund” comment.

The whole article smacks of gatekeeping on the part of the author, like they miss how it used to be a niche hobby.

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art

#38
post #31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dota managed to do it though. There were hundreds of dota versions people made and played before the origin of the modern day dota (called DotA allstars since it was a mesh of the favourite things from the other versions) appeared and everyone settled on it. Edit: And the reason new dota versions stopped appearing after that is that the mapmaking community learned how to prevent people from opening and looking at the…

It was however only after DotA was handed[0] to the design/balancing BDFL IceFrog where it became the competitive game that we think of today. Before that, it was really just another yet popular "fun-map". He took advice from the best players and a trusted circle, but was known to have the last word on things. There is something to say about the quality of a competitive game that is balanced around hardcore play vers…

5.54b was the last version before Icefrog, and then Icefrog took over development and the game slowly became the clean and interesting e-sport it is today. Was still just hobbyists doing it for fun though. People still don't know who Icefrog is, even after being hired by Valve he remains anonymous.

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art

#39
post #18

Okay, so while Westerners were playing D&D, socialists on the other side of the iron curtain were playing Zarnitsa and Orlyonok, where you attack your opponents, capture spies and interrogate them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarnitsa_game I mean, horses for courses, but you could argue that there would be no D&D were it not for capitalism in the first place.

> you could argue that there would be no D&D were it not for capitalism in the first place. This is a fascinating thing for me to read because it is brought up every single time someone points out how capitalism encouraging the profit motive over anything else negatively impacts something. It's also incredibly sad though, as the concept of creating things out of pure joy seems like such an alien concept to some peopl…

> system where people don't have to be coerced to do things

Was there ever a working system without some form of coercion? The common forms of coercion are either withholding resources (usually money), or restricting freedom (prison / labor camp).

Re: Dungeons and Dragons Is a Case Study in How Capitalism Kills Art

#40
post #2

I've never been a part of any of those fandoms, but it was always curious to me how open-source alternatives didn't obliterate things like Warhammer, Magic cards, or things like that. I guess it being a proprietary IP makes it easier to keep a "standard" version of the game, but there should be some way to agree to a certain rules and avoid paying most of the price.

Open-source still struggles with quality and consistency -- two things important in a medium where aesthetics are important. That said, access to low-cost, high-resolution 3D printers (specifically resin-based printers) has enabled an explosion of the open-source Warhammer community (see https://www.reddit.com/r/PrintedWarhammer/ for one example) -- and oddly, it's exactly the free market that is allowing this to flo…

When Warhammer and open-source collide, I'm always fascinated to see which aspect the discussion assumes deserving of attention: the miniatures, or the rules. The minis were historically protected by the rarity of injection moulding hobbyists, but in the era of 3d printing all bets are off. It's made easier by the casual Warhammer scene having long ago grown accustomed to "counts-as" models. Assuming it's around the same size and profile, you can use that WWII tabletop tank and call it a Leman Russ, so a Leman Russ with sliiiiiightly off dimensions or print quality is a shoe-in.

The rules, though, are a different matter. Warhammer 40k (the sci-fi variant) is a confusing blur of simultaneous, competing standards, controlled by an edition rulebook (which handles general gameplay rules and discussing physical aspects of the hobby like collecting and painting) and Codex books for each army, which aren't necessarily updated when a new edition comes out. The interactions of the army rules in each Codex and each edition's ruleset is chaotic at best, and often results in insane-looking letter-of-the-law strategies that exploit that interaction (early Tau firefish, anyone?), until it's fixed by a new Codex or edition.

The problem is, IMO, theorycrafting. The nerds that wind up playing your game have a lot more time, in aggregate, to break it than you do, and once one 'sploit has been found, disseminating it through the internet is trivial. Now everybody's doing it, and it's called "the current meta". If you don't want that, you've got to change something. You can add ever more and more complex pieces to the system, like they did with D&D3.5, or you can keep it moving forward and correct newly discovered imbalances live, as they do with WH40k (or, if you're a conspiracy theorist, correct some and intentionally introduce others).

I stopped trying to climb the endless mountain of 40k a long, long time ago. While I idly dream of a drop-in replacement ruleset that does away with the push-and-pull of edition-and-Codex rules-leapfrogging, I don't think something as complex as 40k can really be distilled into a timeless, unproblematic ruleset like chess or Icehouse or Homeworlds, especially if the intent is to continue releasing new models with new rules... especially if they're Space Marines, the Mary Sues of the 40k universe and the best-selling model line by far.

Anyway, I find it interesting that the parent comment took the approach it did. Note how Warhammer-as-open-source is about the free market providing new models, rather than the reverse-engineers "pirating" the entirety of Magic for XMage or creating new rules for the Star Wars variant. Warhammer has an "alternative client" too, in the form of the Vassal engine [0] (an LGPL 2d tabletop simulation system). Unlike XMage, it doesn't automagically enforce all rules, but then, neither does IRL live-action Warhammer. One could do something similar in Tabletop Simulator, of course.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal_Engine

Post reply on HN