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Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

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Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#51
post #35
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole "cancel culture" concept has literally be around for years, it was just marketed now and used for politics. Humans have been cancelling people and things for eternity. People with extreme views that did not align with the majority were always pushed away. This even happened in medicine and science.

I think the problem is the "democratization" of cancelation. Someone says something mildly controversial (some talk radio host said something terse about a neighbor) and people start lodging complaints against the employer and the hosts advertisers. It's idiotic.

I'm simply not convinced that cancellations of mild controversiality represent a significant proportion of total cancellations without evidence.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#52

New laws mean forcing others to conform to our expectations of their behavior. This is only acceptable when there is a broad social consensus about the necessity of the law. There is no such consensus regarding how social media should operate.

As far as I know, there hasn't even been an attempt at having a serious, ~fact based discussion on the matter that involves the public. Where/how would such a discussion even take place?

The way the world operates in 2021 is a mess, unfortunately this is normal so few people seem to notice.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, I'm not censored on any platform. Then again I don't make violent threats, spread misinformation, use racist language, or harass people. I feel free to have these discussions, and I do all the time. What's the problem? You can communicate freely, but that doesn't mean there isn't consequences for things you speak and nobody has to host you while you're broadcasting it. I find this type of argument devolves int…

> Then again I don't make violent threats, spread misinformation, use racist language, or harass people. You didn't did it yet . All of those are moving targets, and moving extremely fast especially in the US. I could say a dozen of totally non controversial statements in my country of residence (Japan), half of which being controversial or labeled some kind of -ist in my own country (France) and all of them warranti…

I disagree and if you look at my profile I provide a explanatory url for the name. As a bastard child myself I'm not concerned and when used as noun the meaning changes. I do think it's funny that people still do not understand git well enough to realize that the default branch is whatever you want it to be. Even worse, this change/name is a click away in GitHub too. What exactly am I saying here that will be controversial in the future? I'm genuinely curious.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#54
post #46

> While the government can’t police private conversations, it can regulate the content of broadcasts to protect the public interest. I've never agreed with this idea and I don't think I'm alone in that. Possibly "public interest" is the wrong word. > It’s worth remembering that Congress’s decision to license radio operators after the Titanic disaster was about more than just allocating scarce spectrum. It was about b…

> I've never agreed with this idea and I don't think I'm alone in that. Possibly "public interest" is the wrong word.

Do you agree or disagree with the notion that since the electromagnetic spectrum is a limited resource, actual broadcast (using the spectrum) needs to be regulated?

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#55
post #48
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is the "democratization" of cancelation. Someone says something mildly controversial (some talk radio host said something terse about a neighbor) and people start lodging complaints against the employer and the hosts advertisers. It's idiotic.

As if this hasn't been happening to gay people who got outed until extremely recently. It wasn't exclusively democratic, of course: the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy was only repealed a decade ago. Cancel culture isn't remotely new; only now it's punishing bigotry, not an instrument of bigotry. And, no shit, bigots are pissed about that.

It’s not new. The ability for people with little context whatsoever to cancel something just because is new. The democratization is the problem. There is usually little due process, if any. It’s not different from East Germany where is you wanted your neighbors bigger apartment you convict a story about them listening to west German radio programs.

It’s stupid.

In Korea they use this to cow people into behaving “properly” whatever the fuck that means. There is no reason to maintain the belief it will only be used to smoke out the “bigots”.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#56
It's a long article with an admirable examination of history.

However, I feel Carr has made a mistake with his attempt to differentiate between private communication and broadcasting based on "number of followers".

I think the better distinctions looks something like:

  private communication is anything delivered ONLY to people to whom it is addressed or who have actively opted-in to receive communications from the sender. some authentication must be implied before they can read what I have delivered.

  any other communication, regardless of the medium, number of followers, etc. is considered to be public.
So, if I tweet about something, since anyone could read my tweets, they are all public. If I DM someone on twitter, that's private.

If I post something on my own private blog that requires a subscription to read, that's private communication. If I post the same thing on a medium where it can be read by anyone, that's public.

If I email my family about something, that's private; if I post a comment on a tiny open wordpress site with less readers than I have cousines, that's public.

This differentiation says nothing about what the difference in regulation between public and private should be. There are good arguments for many different schemes, some of which involve zero regulation for either form. But to discuss the merits of them, we need a clear distinction between private & public communication, and I think Carr's is wrong and mine is (roughly) right.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, I'm not censored on any platform. Then again I don't make violent threats, spread misinformation, use racist language, or harass people. I feel free to have these discussions, and I do all the time. What's the problem? You can communicate freely, but that doesn't mean there isn't consequences for things you speak and nobody has to host you while you're broadcasting it. I find this type of argument devolves int…

I was thinking about this the other day: in public physical spaces, we often have police who step in when someone says something that breaks the law. In private physical spaces (e.g., a restaurant, store, bar, or house), we either have owners, managers, or private security who step in when someone starts breaking store policy or law. However, in public (or pseudo-public) digital spaces and private digital spaces, som…

Public spaces is the only place where the law regarding freedom of speech directly applies.

What you can say under such circumstances is pretty diverse.

A lot of content Facebook removes would be protected speech in a public space.

In a private physical space its up to the owner. And there is a lot of racism, misogony, bullying, sexist, misandry, threats to public figures, drugs sold, hookers, evil gossip, conspiracy theories, fake news, bad medical advice, locker room talk, inside deals, threats that go on in pubs, gyms, bars, clubs, by people of all races, genders, and ages (once you are allowed in).

If you owned a bar and you swore to avoid all of the above, you would need to kick out nearly everyone on a good night with lots of spirits and beer sold.

"Ok Bob, I know we are in rural Arizona, but what you just said, well some academic in California could find that offensive, you have to leave now. "

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#58

The solution is simple. Exchange the client/server model for a peer-to-peer model. By peer-to-peer and I mean literally IP to IP and not something like instant messenger that bounces messages through a central server. Only then can you assure a fix to interference. This requires: * Routes - both parties to be on IPv6 or either party to have something like port address translation on a IPv6 interface. * Identity - Thi…

>The solution is simple. Exchange the client/server model for a peer-to-peer model. By peer-to-peer and I mean literally IP to IP and not something like instant messenger that bounces messages through a central server. Only then can you assure a fix to interference.

This is my go to response as to "what to do about social media."

And I opine|rant|blather on about it whenever I see folks complaining about or claiming that some rules|regulation|policy will "fix" social media.

And such tracts are becoming more and more common (cf. this article[0][1], entitled OK, but What Should We Actually Do About Facebook? I Asked the Experts. from today). But, as in the article linked, no one ever suggests decentralized communications.

I'm not sure why, but there certainly are barriers to making decentralized "social media" work. Those same barriers are what make centralization of much of our digital universe necessary and hugely profitable.

Those barriers are primarily (there are other issues, but are mostly part of the result rather than the cause) related to the ways in which end-users are provided access to the Internet.

I'm specifically referring to asymmetric internet links. Most internet links are $X Mb/sec download and ($X / 25 or so) Mb/sec upload.

What's more, there are often policy restrictions on "consumer" internet links that block them from "running servers," whether that be port blocking or throttling.

This keeps decentralized communication from being viable. Other than these artificial barriers, there's nothing stopping folks from hosting their own cat/family/meme photos/videos and/or other content.

There are plenty of decentralized platforms that can do so with minimal set up and configuration.

However, if you can't serve more than a couple of concurrent connections at a reasonable speed, that breaks the whole decentralized/P2P paradigm. Because my upload bandwidth is the limiting factor in being able to host content.

If, on the other hand, you have a link with symmetric bandwidth without policy restrictions, serving your own content is a no-brainer.

As such, my "solution" for addressing the "censorship" of the centralized "social media" platforms is to make them irrelevant by eliminating the entire reason for their existence -- asymmetric bandwidth favoring download vs. upload on internet links.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/04/opinion/facebook-experts....

[1] (same as [0], just from archive.md): https://archive.md/qpNtV

Edit: Added title of linked article in the comment.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#59
1, It's extraordinarily American-centric. Most everything the author wrote doesn't apply to the hundreds of other countries or non-American social sites in the world

2, before people criticise social media™ they should come from a position of experience having run their own site or even just a forum

That's the basic issue, an ignorant American jabbering on about something they have zero experience on.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by presented? If I have a friend who has 4000 friends and I am their 4000th most important friend, I would sufficiently believe that a generic post of mine would not appear at the top of their feed and they might not see it. I get the idea of not having all the "so and so friend liked so and so's post" which feel low quality in a feed, but part of a custom feed is prioritizing updates from people you…

If you were making the choice as to which friends you wanted to hear from or updates you wanted to receive from you're friends, then I take you point. When someone else, or their algorithm, makes these decisions that is something else and it may actually veer into censorship.

Hm. This argument falls flat to me. A feed is considered editorialized by you, but nearly any combo of content is editorialized to some degree. A magazine makes editorial decisions on where in the magazine articles are placed... this does not mean its censorship, it just means you haven't read the whole thing.

Also, the tools exists on all of these social media products to actually go and check on your friends' pages where you can see their updates. Nothing stops you from doing that and consuming the content you wish.

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