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An oral history of Bank Python

calpaterson.com

201–210 of 333 posts

Re: An oral history of Bank Python

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I go for James Bond references, when I can. 'Moonraker' is always a great choice. Sometimes I'm constrained to a specific starting letter, so I've had to stretch it at times, like when I needed an 'S-' word... ended up going with 'Sinatra' since Nancy Sinatra performed 'You Only Live Twice' for that movie

Sean ? Spectre ? Sexism ?

Sean would be a weird codename and Spectre sounds a bit too ominous... We'll have to settle for Sexism

Re: An oral history of Bank Python

#202
post #133

I was the person who first deployed Python at Goldman Sachs. At the time it was an "unapproved technology" but the partner in charge of my division called me and said (This is literally word for word because partners didn't call me every day so I remember) Err....hi Sean, It's Armen. Uhh.... So I heard you like python.... well if someone was to uhh.... install python on the train... they probably wouldn't be fired. O…

For some context (as an ex-Goldman employee myself), "Armen" in the quote is most probably https://www.goldmansachs.com/insights/outlook/bios/armen-ava... , who has quite a legendary reputation within the firm for the work he's done. He was also one of the first to be hired as a "strat", which used to be how Goldman referred to its quants who sat between front office and tech systems and worked with both sides.

SecDB/Slang originated around 1992 at the commodity trading shop J Aron, which GS had bought 1981. Later (end of the 90s) there was a push to extend it to the rest of the firm, first fixed income, then equities. Armen flew the whole world-wide strat team to NY and gave a presentation, and to drive the point home, he played a clip from StarTrek: "You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile!"

Re: An oral history of Bank Python

#203
post #152

> I've mentioned that programmers are far too dismissive of MS Excel. You can achieve a awful lot with Excel: more, even, than some programmers can achieve without it This is one of the most underrated topics in tech imho. Spreadsheet is probably the pinnacle of how tech could be easily approachable by non tech people, in the "bike for the mind" sense. We came a long way down hill from there when you need an speciali…

Plus, a spreadsheet is basically purely functional (unless there's mucking around in VisualBasic), and has a beautiful dependency graph and calculation engine! (And that is a big part of what SecDB/Slang/Bank Python brought to the table.)

Re: An oral history of Bank Python

#204
post #152

> I've mentioned that programmers are far too dismissive of MS Excel. You can achieve a awful lot with Excel: more, even, than some programmers can achieve without it This is one of the most underrated topics in tech imho. Spreadsheet is probably the pinnacle of how tech could be easily approachable by non tech people, in the "bike for the mind" sense. We came a long way down hill from there when you need an speciali…

problem as described to me is that excel starts being used for regulated processes and it's not well auditable, access controlled, changed controlled, tracked, etc etc. Then people need to implement the exact same process across departments and they're all using a separate excel sheet and they all submit different numbers. becomes a huge mess and so much more complicated and expensive systems become commissioned.

Fun story: I was at a bank that used Excel for everything. As you say, there came a complaint from the auditors that it's not well auditable, and there needed to be "a system".

Solution: the bank put together a system that constructs (from Excel templates and the bank trading data and market data) Excel spreadsheets from scratch every day, then used those for the calculations, and stored them. But now it was "a system", so all good.

Re: An oral history of Bank Python

#205
post #31

I was the person who first deployed Python at Goldman Sachs. At the time it was an "unapproved technology" but the partner in charge of my division called me and said (This is literally word for word because partners didn't call me every day so I remember) Err....hi Sean, It's Armen. Uhh.... So I heard you like python.... well if someone was to uhh.... install python on the train... they probably wouldn't be fired. O…

I worked on Quartz for 3 years and loved it. Some devs grumbled about various aspects of it, but I come from an application support background and taught myself python, so I suppose I had fewer developer habits to un-learn. From what I understand, all this started with SecDB at Goldman, which was a the prototype for all these systems but wasn't Python based. The lore is that SecDB was instrumental in Goldman being ab…

> From what I understand, all this started with SecDB at Goldman, which was a the prototype for all these systems but wasn't Python based.

Correct. SecDB has its own language, S-lang, which you could probably best describe as a "lispy Smalltalk, with a hefty sprinkling of Frankenstein". The concept of SecDB was so good that other large banks wanted to get their own. Athena and Quartz have been mentioned several times in this thread, by people far more knowledgeable than I could ever be.

It's not just banking, I know of at least one large pension/insurance company who are building their own version of SecDB, with direct lines to GS. (They don't try to hide it, btw: the company is Rothesay Life.) The last time I talked with them, they were looking for Rust devs.

Disclosure: I work at Beacon.

Re: An oral history of Bank Python

#206

I was the person who first deployed Python at Goldman Sachs. At the time it was an "unapproved technology" but the partner in charge of my division called me and said (This is literally word for word because partners didn't call me every day so I remember) Err....hi Sean, It's Armen. Uhh.... So I heard you like python.... well if someone was to uhh.... install python on the train... they probably wouldn't be fired. O…

Oh wow, I remember Quartz at BAML… Though this was several years after initial deployment and when core devs left.

One day I will sit down and write a small poem about the insanity of software development based on my experience with Quartz. It will be an intriguing story of love and hate being told through a sensual dance between sales and engineering. The battles will not be epic but the consequences of one’s actions will be far reaching.

It was indeed and experience worth having.

Re: An oral history of Bank Python

#207
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

problem as described to me is that excel starts being used for regulated processes and it's not well auditable, access controlled, changed controlled, tracked, etc etc. Then people need to implement the exact same process across departments and they're all using a separate excel sheet and they all submit different numbers. becomes a huge mess and so much more complicated and expensive systems become commissioned.

Fun story: I was at a bank that used Excel for everything. As you say, there came a complaint from the auditors that it's not well auditable, and there needed to be "a system". Solution: the bank put together a system that constructs (from Excel templates and the bank trading data and market data) Excel spreadsheets from scratch every day, then used those for the calculations, and stored them. But now it was "a syste…

Well you can audit the code that generates spreadsheets, which seems to solve the audit problem. Kind of like I prefer reading a Dockerfile that builds a program from the GitHub repo, rather than downloading a pre-compiled package I can't trust.

Re: An oral history of Bank Python

#208
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

problem as described to me is that excel starts being used for regulated processes and it's not well auditable, access controlled, changed controlled, tracked, etc etc. Then people need to implement the exact same process across departments and they're all using a separate excel sheet and they all submit different numbers. becomes a huge mess and so much more complicated and expensive systems become commissioned.

Fun story: I was at a bank that used Excel for everything. As you say, there came a complaint from the auditors that it's not well auditable, and there needed to be "a system". Solution: the bank put together a system that constructs (from Excel templates and the bank trading data and market data) Excel spreadsheets from scratch every day, then used those for the calculations, and stored them. But now it was "a syste…

sounds like a great system. we have something similar where we put excel in and out but doesn't sound as slick as that. on top of the system there is access control, versioning and such. the data gets approved and then stored in the backend to feed the regulated process.

Re: An oral history of Bank Python

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> python build, dependency and deployment management is exceptionally awful in every respect, this isn't as big a pain point in other languages I'm not sure how to react to that, but these features in Python are miles ahead of what many other languages have (or actually don't have).

Am I the only one who has never had enough headache over the years to say its awful? I do think dependency management is a somewhat difficult problem to solve and a lot of systems have pros/cons but I never have had huge issues with Python's.

[deleted]

Re: An oral history of Bank Python

#210
post #44

I worked on Quartz for a while as a contractor. Hated every second of it. Python version was old (2.4 if I remember correctly when 3.x was already the popular version). But that wasn't it. It was the proprietary version of everything in the stack that got me. Proprietary ide, source control, libs etc. I noted that none of the others who have been there for years have any transferable skills that can cary them out of…

I second your opinion (interned @ Athena, not Quartz) - compared to my current BigN experience everything was worse by a magnitude: the IDE, the source control, the review mechanism, the job scheduler and so on.

I'd expect with so many devs working on this the DevX will be ironed out

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