Live data from Hacker News

Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

thenewatlantis.com

21–30 of 107 posts

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#21
post #9

My 2 cents on how to fix social media, maybe it is stupid but to ban any political discussion. People LOVE talking about politics especially in their personal community (echo chamber). I swear this is the most fun political people have had on the internet in 20 years. It’s too bad it just becomes an echo chamber. We had a community group for our town on Facebook, all it was was fake accounts and people talking shit a…

I think every social media will grow until it reaches politics, stock / investment or pornography. And you would think having a special channel for those would fix it, but no, it always creeps back in. It is sort of strange to continue see the same pattern over and over again. Personally I think we have a human nature problem, and not a technology problem looking for market fit.

In my social group, I ask that politics be contained to a specific channel.

Anyone is free to join the channel, no limitations or anything, just an opt-in. Rule is posted obviously and we remind people frequently.

I've lost 4 people because they were upset that this rule is enforced against everyone, out of a group of maybe 20. They wanted their politics to be everywhere and not constrained to one channel.

I never thought this tiny little policy was going to cause such a mess. It has dramatically improved the rest of discussions - you can actually just talk about stuff without people jumping in with their political takes - but it's been an upsetting policy in ways I did not anticipate.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#22

My 2 cents on how to fix social media, maybe it is stupid but to ban any political discussion. People LOVE talking about politics especially in their personal community (echo chamber). I swear this is the most fun political people have had on the internet in 20 years. It’s too bad it just becomes an echo chamber. We had a community group for our town on Facebook, all it was was fake accounts and people talking shit a…

Besides what others have brought up, I'll bring up the fact that what constitutes "politics" is almost a political question in and of itself.

And I live in an area affected by Hurricane Ida. I've started following my local government on social media because it is one of the best places to keep up to date on what's going on concerning cleanup and what not. And I would say a government run page concerning that government is about as political as you can get.

As is your community page. A lot of things related to your town is political. I mean, politics is the word we use to define how groups make decisions. So any time you're talking about making decisions in a group, you're talking politics.

But of course, that's not what you mean when you say "politics". It's not what anyone who complains about politics mean when they say politics. They either mean "things I don't agree with", "things I find uncomfortable to think about", or "evangelizing a viewpoint".

For instance, someone complained about Squid Game being "too political" because it had an underlying message of "rich people fuck with poor people for sport". But it isn't a political statement at all, it's a sociological one. But thinking about how a less exaggerated version of that is basically our day to day makes that guy uncomfortable. He wanted to tune in and drop out. But "this makes me uncomfortable" is a him problem. He's trying to make it an everyone problem.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#23
The solution is simple. Exchange the client/server model for a peer-to-peer model. By peer-to-peer and I mean literally IP to IP and not something like instant messenger that bounces messages through a central server. Only then can you assure a fix to interference.

This requires:

* Routes - both parties to be on IPv6 or either party to have something like port address translation on a IPv6 interface.

* Identity - This will require a combination of CA and STUN. The certificate from the CA and corresponding key pair associated with that certificate ensures a user is who they say they are and their keys are respectable. The corresponding key exchange ensures the data is confined to the two parties. The STUN server correlates the unique user ID, such as that which is certified by the certificate, to an IP address.

Anything less is just another game for some media company to use you as a product.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#24

I don't want social media to censor me, people I want to communicate with or people I don't ever want to communicate with. I want tools that help me communicate with other people. Learn things, get exposed to new ideas. And we can't have that with a huge system designed to prevent people from saying the wrong things. Our ability to communicate and learn freely is dependent on the ability for people we disagree with t…

Funny, I'm not censored on any platform. Then again I don't make violent threats, spread misinformation, use racist language, or harass people. I feel free to have these discussions, and I do all the time. What's the problem?

You can communicate freely, but that doesn't mean there isn't consequences for things you speak and nobody has to host you while you're broadcasting it. I find this type of argument devolves into "I want to be a crappy person and not be judged for it or face consequences", which just isn't the reality we're living in.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#25

I don't want social media to censor me, people I want to communicate with or people I don't ever want to communicate with. I want tools that help me communicate with other people. Learn things, get exposed to new ideas. And we can't have that with a huge system designed to prevent people from saying the wrong things. Our ability to communicate and learn freely is dependent on the ability for people we disagree with t…

Funny, I'm not censored on any platform. Then again I don't make violent threats, spread misinformation, use racist language, or harass people. I feel free to have these discussions, and I do all the time. What's the problem? You can communicate freely, but that doesn't mean there isn't consequences for things you speak and nobody has to host you while you're broadcasting it. I find this type of argument devolves int…

I was thinking about this the other day: in public physical spaces, we often have police who step in when someone says something that breaks the law. In private physical spaces (e.g., a restaurant, store, bar, or house), we either have owners, managers, or private security who step in when someone starts breaking store policy or law. However, in public (or pseudo-public) digital spaces and private digital spaces, some of us seem to rebel strongly against any type of norm enforcement.

I mean, I can see how sometimes the internet seems to promise even more freedom of speech than in physical spaces and also that sometimes there are not very clear written laws or policies for those digital spaces, paired with unclear or unfair enforcement of those laws and policies.

Makes me wonder what the future of digital governance will look like. Do we have the digital equivalent of cops roaming semi-public spaces like Twitter and Facebook? If so, by whose consent are they governing? Do these orgs hire the equivalent of private security guards or bouncers? Have they already done so through moderators and such?

Anyway, just got me thinking about some of the challenges in the governance of digital spaces.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#26

I don't want social media to censor me, people I want to communicate with or people I don't ever want to communicate with. I want tools that help me communicate with other people. Learn things, get exposed to new ideas. And we can't have that with a huge system designed to prevent people from saying the wrong things. Our ability to communicate and learn freely is dependent on the ability for people we disagree with t…

Funny, I'm not censored on any platform. Then again I don't make violent threats, spread misinformation, use racist language, or harass people. I feel free to have these discussions, and I do all the time. What's the problem? You can communicate freely, but that doesn't mean there isn't consequences for things you speak and nobody has to host you while you're broadcasting it. I find this type of argument devolves int…

I find this type of argument devolves into "I want to be a crappy person and not be judged for it or face consequences"

Whereas I find your counter-argument devolves into "Crappy people are those who disagree with my point of view and they should face consequences"...

The truth is there are extremes on both sides; but the censorship seems to be overwhelmingly driven by one.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#27
post #2

> As the dominant informational networks of the twenty-first century, they need to be accountable for the content they broadcast, whatever its source. The article seems to be arguing that social media companies need to be judge, jury and censor over every message that is "broadcast", i.e. sent to more than a few close friends. It admits that defining a "public interest" standard is basically impossible, but assumes t…

I am not a lawyer, but... a public interest clause might not be the right tool, since public interest can be interpreted as restricted to information that would affect a person's voting preferences and nothing broader.

In the UK TV broadcasters get their licences and general charter terms from the government, based on standards previously contested in law and, I believe, broadly enshrined in statute and/or regulations. One of those terms is a crucial clause to the effect that broadcasters are not allowed to broadcast anything that would make ordinary people throw up over their TV dinner or grannies die of apoplexy, etc.

Various entities, people or single issue political parties for instance, have attempted to get broadcasters to show films containing grisly stuff, and when they meet refusal have attempted to sue broadcasters on free speech grounds. However, the right to free speech does not allow a legal entity or person to compel some other party to shout out noxious views on their behalf. So broadcasters in the UK can exercise their rights against such compulsion and filter out extremal horrors if they wish. The tests they use are designed to maintain the same two or three standard deviations of a normal distribution curve that maximises their customer base and matches the same standards civil law requires to maintain order on the civil scale anyway.

In that context, what are social media companies if they are not media intermediaries between legal entities? Thus they can not be compelled to relay anyone's content to anywhere else if they don't want to. Their T&Cs typically say so anyway.

Folks worried about censorship of their partisan or minority views on such platforms don't seem to get what rights those intermediary companies have. They play nice relaying messages because they like mass market incomes.

So really the issue might be purely about how many messages could MetaFB/Twitter afford to kill off and still be popular enough to survive?

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#28
My dad always talked about George Carlin the guy is a legend. My dad always told me a story about when Carlin was “not” allowed to say certain things on the air and made comment to that fact. I am now betting it was because of this case. Supposedly Carlin turned to the camera and said something along the lines of “f&@k all you stupid lip readers out there” except he only lipped it never actually said it. I’m not sure if it was live or they producers just didn’t understand what he did but they aired the show. It made a lot of deaf people mad apparently. I have not been able to find the clip or any reference to it but believe my dad’s account.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#29

I don't want social media to censor me, people I want to communicate with or people I don't ever want to communicate with. I want tools that help me communicate with other people. Learn things, get exposed to new ideas. And we can't have that with a huge system designed to prevent people from saying the wrong things. Our ability to communicate and learn freely is dependent on the ability for people we disagree with t…

Funny, I'm not censored on any platform. Then again I don't make violent threats, spread misinformation, use racist language, or harass people. I feel free to have these discussions, and I do all the time. What's the problem? You can communicate freely, but that doesn't mean there isn't consequences for things you speak and nobody has to host you while you're broadcasting it. I find this type of argument devolves int…

>Funny, I'm not censored on any platform. Then again I don't... spread misinformation

That's because you can't think outside the box. All the greatest iconoclastic truths in human history were labeled "dangerous misinformation" by the authorities.

Re: Nicholas Carr on how to fix social media

#30

My 2 cents on how to fix social media, maybe it is stupid but to ban any political discussion. People LOVE talking about politics especially in their personal community (echo chamber). I swear this is the most fun political people have had on the internet in 20 years. It’s too bad it just becomes an echo chamber. We had a community group for our town on Facebook, all it was was fake accounts and people talking shit a…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN