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Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

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Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#231
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a daily Emacs user, and happily use a 100 line init.el, mostly composed of "enable this mode". Emacs supports customization needs to the nth degree, but I've found that this is a false economyy. I agree Emacs needs to be easier to get started with.

You would probably be more productive in VS Code with an empty config.

> You would probably be more productive in VS Code with an empty config.

Org mode is the main productivity multiplier. How do I do that in VS Code?

Any time I read a comment where VSCode is the obvious alternative to Emacs, it's a clear sign the commenter knows little of Emacs.

Take a look at last year's EmacsConf and count how many of the talks are about SW development (hint - minority). A very large number of Emacs users do not use it for SW development, and stating they'd be more productive in VS Code is simply false.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#232
Here's the major benefit of investing long-term into emacs.

Not only do I have virtually the same, infinitely configurable interface for coding in any language, I also have that interface for most things I need to do in my workday. On top of coding in my day-to-day I:

- manage my task lists

- manage clients and projects

- keep a daily journal and other notes

- draft documents and create templates

- search through or replace in multiple documents

- navigate directories and manage files

- do quick calculations and tables

- and much more

All using the same interface, without having to reach for a mouse or switch to a different program. The amount of cognitive load and context switching this reduces is great.

The only other tool I use that is as flexible is the web browser, but it's nowhere near as consistent.

Of course it's emacs, so if I chose to I could also manage emails, newslists, blogposts, pong, etc. etc.

If I'm playing with a language that is much better served by an IDE or vscode, then I can always use it for that language. However I find that a) those features that made me want to switch weren't worth losing the other powers and I eventually end up back in emacs; and b) often the language's emacs package will eventually end up with that feature anyway.

It is absolutely worth the investment.

No, you're not going see this benefit in the first month of learning it. It'll be incremental over years of using it.

As far as configuration goes - Yes, you can spend lots of time in configuration, just like new linux users tend to spend years distrohopping. But it's not necessary. I suggest that if you learn vanilla emacs first, you'll figure out which keybindings you really need to change later on.

My configuration has been stable for years, and the only time I need to edit it is if I've added configuration for a new package. I don't use overlays like evil or doom, so perhaps this provides a bit more stability, I don't know.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#233
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2) The first time you load many common filetypes (like Java for example), a box pops up saying "Do you want me to install a nice set of standard Java plugins?" Spacemacs also does this, and it's a big part of why I stuck around long enough to discover some of the plugins that make the Emacs world really special, like Org mode and Magit. I'm still no Emacs hacker, but I know enough to get by, and that a good starter…

Yee, very similar here, Though for me, Doom Emacs, very simple to set up, and was more or less just work for me. Though one day I will bother to configure emacs from scratch, but that day is not today.

I'm planning to use the next time I move to a new computer to switch to Doom Emacs and start over with some of my other, old dotfiles, too

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#234
post #208
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not played with VS Code a lot, but I get the impression that, yes, they aim for something similar. I'm not qualified to judge, though, how successful they are so far. FWIW, when I hear people talk about VS Code, they appear to like it very much. But AFAICT, it has some way to go to catch up with all the functionality emacs has accreted over 30+ years. Also, there is an effort replace the old lisp engine inside…

Isn't the Guile effort practically dead? I remember hearing about it 10 years ago. It was actually started in 2000 and doesn't seem to have progressed since 2014: https://emacsninja.com/posts/state-of-emacs-lisp-on-guile.ht... Plus, even if it's finished, will it get any traction in the ecosystem? Will the ecosystem start moving to it to take advantage of its unique benefits? Who knows? Bonus: Have you heard of GNU H…

I honestly don't know about the state or progress of Guile Emacs. I know it exists, but I haven't followed it beyond that.

Assuming it gets "finished" (is any software ever finished?), it should be no-brainer as long as it provides backward compatibility with old elisp code. And open up the emacs ecosystem to Scheme and Javascript, which could make it much more attractive to newcomers. But, as they say, I'll believe it when I see it.

The trouble with Hurd, IMHO, is that I've run out of jokes. We used to joke that it would run Duke Nukem Forever out of the box, but that one actually got finished. Then it was Perl 6, but that has arrived, too. Star Citizen maybe?

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#235
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to meet this mythical Emacs programmer which is blinded to its flaws, I don't think they're common.

I've read a bunch of articles where long time Emacs users are put into a position where they have to achieve something on a tight deadline. Many of them try to muddle through their Rube Goldberg contraption of a local config and under time pressure or advised by someone else they try a modern IDE and suddenly realize why many professional developers use them. They realize that despite the potentially subpar text edit…

which is all absolutely fantastic if you are following the script.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#236
post #105

This was super valuable as it showed me conclusively why Emacs is dead, except for a relatively small group of persons who were exposed to it very early in their careers.

Emacs likely has more new users now than ever before. I'd wager the absolute number of users are clearly growing. There's an order of magnitude more Youtube videos, blog posts, etc than there were 10 years ago. Getting Emacs help via a Google search often failed me a decade ago. Now it's extremely rare that I don't find an answer.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#237
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My emacs setup takes minutes to install on a new computer. I use borg, but there are many other ways to do it.

How long did it take you to assemble your setup? Wall time, not fuzzy memories à la "it takes 5 minutes to cook this". My bet? Tens, if not hundreds of hours.

I've probably spent less than 50 hours total over 20 years on my emacs configuration. But it wasn't all at once. And now I just copy the .emacs file between systems. Tweaking it is maybe minutes a year now. If I want to do something with, say, Go, I just download the appropriate mode. The longest time spent was when I had a few bespoke languages at work that had no text editor support in any editor. I wrote some minor modes to support them, that was probably 10 hours total with most of the time on the first minor mode, and the rest flowing quickly thanks to the prior experience.

EDIT: For comparison, I've probably spent 100x that (if not more) on Linux configurations.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#238
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you need a dedicated tutorial for a text editor it's a great sign that something is very wrong with its design, particularly concerning discoverability. Emacs has no user-friendly command names (you need to memorize function names which are often meaningless abbreviations), no autocomplete, and doesn't show available functions.

"No autocomplete" and "doesn't show available functions" are a matter of bad defaults, rather than lack of capability. There are great packages for them available, but even in core, there are OK options (ido-mode). I do wish that the core team would "bless" great packages and work towards bringing them into core and into the defaults.

FSF copyright assignment is a stumbling block here in my opinion.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#239
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just love that for a moment here we’ve put aside our differences about emacs vs vi and focused our efforts on bike shedding which car analogy best fits. Peak computing culture.

I wouldn't waste keystrokes on the classic religious war being waged in this thread so I'm gonna throw my hat in this arena instead. I agree with you---that analogy sucks. Being able to drive an F1 car comes with excellent financial opportunities. Even if I'm not "on the grid" (i.e., actively competing in the GPs), I can be a test driver. Heck the license required to drive an F1 car opens other doors in itself (maybe…

I think the right POV is that Emacs is a text-mode Lisp VM, or at least the remains of one. Whereas vi is just a (great) modal editing interface. They are not comparable.

Actually, vim is not a very good implementation of vi's principles.

Concerning Emacs, as a heavy user I think it needs 4 things to stay relatively popular. I don't think it will be ever super popular, and that's fine:

* Get popular workflows to work with zero configuration. Some packages like AuCTeX, Magit or Notmuch are great at this. But many programming modes require adding too much code to init.el (or .emacs), this code breaks often and it is poorly documented.

* There are too many half-finished packages for some tasks, mostly programming modes. Variety is great, but too much fragmentation is hurting the ecosystem.

* Look at things that other editors are doing better, mostly VS Code. In the past, this approach motivated implementing a package manager (ELPA), which was a huge step forward.

* Get better documentation. It's hard to find up-to-date information for many packages. Besides, the tutorial focuses too much on keybindings and doesn't talk about Emacs core principles. So, to a beginner Emacs looks like a bunch of keystroke tricks that make zero sense.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#240
post #18

Emacs should have been what VSCode is now - a powerhouse of customizability that offers unmatched functionality by default. Instead it's a toy for some old people who are still holding onto the remnants of an age that passed a long time ago. Emacs is basically useless compared to VS Code, and its authors are what's holding it back. I don't see it bouncing back to popularity any time soon. Anything you can do in Emacs…

> Anything you can do in Emacs, you can do in VS Code faster, better, and easier.

Show me how to do the following in VS Code:

1. Org mode, or anything as powerful as Org mode (org mode is one of the two major packages that keep people in Emacs - it's not an obscure thing).

2. Reading, writing, and managing email (e.g. adding a tag to an email). While you're at it, please make sure the org mode equivalent can have a TODO linking to a particular email.

3. IRC

4. Feed reader

I honestly have not searched whether these exist in VSCode, so it would be nice to know.

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