Our self imposed scarcity of nice places • Hacker News Board

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#81

Post by nivenkos » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:41 AM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #38

nivenkos wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The walkability comes at the cost of tiny housing though. Like here in Stockholm even 60m2 is getting very pricy (~350-450k USD). The main issue is that there is just nowhere near enough housing to keep up with population increases, seemingly anywhere in the Western world. And housing has become a "store of value" against inflation for investors, driving up prices and becoming a retirement fund for landlords and home…

If you use price per square meter to compare European housing to American housing, Europe seems super expensive. But, if you compare by the functional space (# bedrooms), Europe is cheap. I moved from San Diego to Amsterdam and was very happy to find 3-4 bedroom apartments to buy (the bank accepted my self employment income and gave a 1.6% interest rate). Apartments are well designed so you don’t need as much space.…

I guess you're on a US salary as a contractor? There's no way I could afford more than 2 bedrooms in the city as a senior engineer, and even that's a push.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#82

Post by sokoloff » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:41 AM UTC

rekado wrote: post #58

jseban wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in such a properly built out environment, and I just think it's a complete waste of time and effort to insist on such inefficient and inconvenient modes of transportation, and I hate wasting time and effort on recurring daily chores, I just want it to be as efficient as possible. You rely on cars/trucks indirectly anyway, that bring the groceries to your closest store, and deliver your packages so what's th…

Hmm, I find it very hard to relate to this perspective. Perhaps this is a cultural difference: I don't value efficiency in my life nearly as much as you seem to do. I don't go out of my way to waste time, but I'm perfectly happy to walk through the quiet roads while carrying groceries, thinking about what I've recently read, wondering about things I happen to see on my walk ---such as the Jugendstil reliefs on facade…

For me, it’s not about carrying the groceries, but the mental and temporal overhead of thinking about what I needed, making a list, walking however many additional minutes, spending 15 minutes shopping/paying/packing, etc would strike me as a terrific waste if done daily.

I used to do that when I interned in Germany. The market was near the bus stop and our dorm had limited fridge space, so I’d tend to buy and eat the same day (and rarely cook from scratch). That wouldn’t work so well to feed a family of four that way.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#83

Post by crooked-v » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:41 AM UTC

jseban wrote: post #67

sammorrowdrums wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the Netherlands. We bike rather than just walk everywhere, and generally people do more frequent small shops rather than big weekly shop. It takes some imagination and a lot of urban planning work, but quality of life improves dramatically, it’s life-changing. Much Urban planning was involved in making it better for cycling though, and it wasn’t always great for it. Off-road cycle paths being a mainstay for…

> We bike rather than just walk everywhere, and generally people do more frequent small shops rather than big weekly shop. It takes some imagination and a lot of urban planning work, but quality of life improves dramatically, it’s life-changing. Yeah which means that you spend a lot more time and energy on grocery shopping. That is for me directly inverse to quality of life. The more time I spend in traffic (cycling…

> The more time I spend in traffic

Where I live, walking to a small grocery store is literally faster than driving plus the ancillary annoyances of driving (finding parking, loading and unloading, etc).

To come out ahead in the time side of the equation while driving I would need to make significantly larger shopping trips spaced further apart... which would each then eat up significantly more time in loading, unloading, carrying, and putting food away.

> and queueing in crowded grocery stores

Walkable neighborhood grocery stores have smaller queues than big-box stores, as a mostly-even distribution of customers across multiple stores and floors on staffing (e.g. you can't have less than one register) mean an average of more staff per customer.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#84

Post by detaro » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:43 AM UTC

jseban wrote: post #65

rekado wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I find it very hard to relate to this perspective. Perhaps this is a cultural difference: I don't value efficiency in my life nearly as much as you seem to do. I don't go out of my way to waste time, but I'm perfectly happy to walk through the quiet roads while carrying groceries, thinking about what I've recently read, wondering about things I happen to see on my walk ---such as the Jugendstil reliefs on facade…

Yeah, but my point is that the things everyone must do should be made as efficient as possible, so that everyone is free to choose how they want to waste their time. We shouldn't force anyone to spend their time and effort in a specific way by deliberately making something less efficient that's just stupid.

Good, then please don't build cities that force me to use a car if I want to live efficiently.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#85

Post by torben-friis » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:43 AM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #14

fsloth wrote: post #8

Fantastic cultural divide. This is one of the reasons why I read HN. Most of Europe is more or less walkable - one reason is that the largest urban centers predate cars, but intentional design AF (anno ford) is also a factor. I can bike or walk everywhere, and the only reason I have a car is that it makes grocery shopping much, much easier. I am not very green or anything, I just like to keep things simple. You can c…

The walkability comes at the cost of tiny housing though. Like here in Stockholm even 60m2 is getting very pricy (~350-450k USD). The main issue is that there is just nowhere near enough housing to keep up with population increases, seemingly anywhere in the Western world. And housing has become a "store of value" against inflation for investors, driving up prices and becoming a retirement fund for landlords and home…

>The main issue is that there is just nowhere near enough housing to keep up with population increases, seemingly anywhere in the Western world.

Not sure about Sweden but at least here (Spain) housing being bought for investment is much more of a problem than physical unavailability. And I don't mean it as a store of value:

People (and companies) buy houses to rent them and have the rent payments pay for the mortgage payments, since it's basically free money - For those that can get a mortgage, since it's pretty much mandatory to pay 20% of the cost upfront (plus taxes).

Basic needs really shouldn't be investment material.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#86

Post by nivenkos » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:43 AM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #32

nivenkos wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The walkability comes at the cost of tiny housing though. Like here in Stockholm even 60m2 is getting very pricy (~350-450k USD). The main issue is that there is just nowhere near enough housing to keep up with population increases, seemingly anywhere in the Western world. And housing has become a "store of value" against inflation for investors, driving up prices and becoming a retirement fund for landlords and home…

'And housing has become a "store of value"' 'Not become' but 'has been' for decades. You only now start to notice it as inflation and wages have not kept up. This is by design in most post-WW 2 western economies as an economic policy to "increase national wealth". That's why housing loans are subsidized and whatnot.

Well post-WW2 there was a huge boom in construction in Europe at least.

Especially since many cities were almost completely destroyed. Even where my grandparents lived in England, the Blitz destroyed a lot of homes and meant mass construction was inevitable.

It's really been since the 80s, that all infrastructure and construction projects have been slowed down and hampered by NIMBYism - and it's all about just pumping up the existing prices through artificial scarcity.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#87

Post by peoplefromibiza » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:45 AM UTC

jseban wrote: post #12

fsloth wrote: post #8

Fantastic cultural divide. This is one of the reasons why I read HN. Most of Europe is more or less walkable - one reason is that the largest urban centers predate cars, but intentional design AF (anno ford) is also a factor. I can bike or walk everywhere, and the only reason I have a car is that it makes grocery shopping much, much easier. I am not very green or anything, I just like to keep things simple. You can c…

> I can bike or walk everywhere, and the only reason I have a car is that it makes grocery shopping much, much easier. Yes, you still want a car for such things, sure it's quaint and nice to have a "walkable" neighborhood, if you're a tourist, but if you live there and have to schlep around by foot with your groceries every day, in all weathers, it's just annoying. I want my neighborhood to be functional and efficien…

I am in no way an activist of any kind, but especially when the weather is bad (think about rain) going around with the car is a nightmare where I live, that's why I prefer to buy my groceries everyday walking to a local supermarket.

It takes a few minutes, it's a break from work, walking in the fresh air clears my mind and I avoid the traffic jams or having to park where there is no parking space available.

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#88

Post by jseban » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:45 AM UTC

FriedrichN wrote: post #75

jseban wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can bike or walk everywhere, and the only reason I have a car is that it makes grocery shopping much, much easier. Yes, you still want a car for such things, sure it's quaint and nice to have a "walkable" neighborhood, if you're a tourist, but if you live there and have to schlep around by foot with your groceries every day, in all weathers, it's just annoying. I want my neighborhood to be functional and efficien…

Walking with groceries in the rain won't kill you, I promise. It's a small inconvenience but in my opinion you get a lot back for it, everything just becomes more village like and friendly. Being in a car does not tend to make people more friendly. And just because there are nice places to hang out does not automatically mean there will be drugs and crime. That is not my experience at least.

Yeah but why do you want to turn back time to a village and make things less efficient, what's the point of pretending to be poor. Americans are the friendliest people in the world and they drive the most, the more people cycle and walk in the cold rain, the more depressed and unfriendly they become

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#89

Post by entropyie » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:46 AM UTC

jseban wrote: post #40

stavros wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here, the supermarket is 3' away by foot and I've never even thought "oh man, I should take the car and go to the larger supermarket that's 15' away". It's just not inconvenient at all. I wonder if the difference in opinion is from a lack of exercise? I don't mind carrying 20kg of stuff back home in bags, I'm used to it and it's good to get at least some exercise.

Haha carrying 20kg of stuff back home in bags, that's ridiculous! Yeah do that after a long day of work, and also you can forget ever having any energy left for doing any sport because now your only sport ever is carrying groceries. What a poor life

If you think this is strenuous and unreasonable for an able bodied person, then I think you need to level set with the rest of humanity. Also, just get a bike with a basket if you don't like carrying stuff. Personally I feel super stressed and mentally exhausted on the occasions I have to spend the afternoon urban driving... Give me the 20kg walk any day!

Re: Our self imposed scarcity of nice places

#90

Post by crooked-v » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 9:47 AM UTC

matkoniecz wrote: post #64

stavros wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the way I live, you think I've never shopped after work? If I couldn't carry 20kg for 200m, I'd have more of a problem with how I live than where.

If anyone seriously considers transporting 20kg for 200m "incredibly strenuous and unnecessarily hard way of life" then it is hard to treat them seriously. Note that you can put it into backpack or use something like https://duckduckgo.com/?q=wozek+na+zakupy&t=ffab&iar=images&... (sorry, not sure how it is called in English). PS Unless they have serious medical issues, far worse than typical. Or they are really old o…

I think the most common way to call it would be "utility trolley" or "utility cart". Usually the ones you'll see in the U.S. are all metal and can fold up to make it easier to put them in car trunks or carry them on buses.