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Why Arabic is Terrific

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Re: Why Arabic is Terrific

#101
post #6
post #4

> The combination of numerous dialects and a formal/informal continuum is pretty much unique to Arabic and gives rise to fascinating situations watching Arabs calibrate their lanugage based on the situation and the linguistic background of their interlocutor. Not Chinese? (Also, #9 hardly seems like an item to include in an article explaining 'Why Arabic is Terrific'. 'Terrifying', perhaps.)

The concept of dialect is quite vague and is generally determined politically. Some like the Chinese "dialects" are generally mutually unintelligible and are actually different languages. On the other end of the spectrum, one may consider Norwegian/Swedish/Danish, which may be treated as dialects of teh same language practically bur are considered separate languages ( http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1…

Treating it as the same language would be a stretch.

As a Swede, especially spoken Danish is completely unitelligible.

Having worked with Norwegians the last few years, I have learned to understand spoken Norwegian most of the time. There is however a lot of variation i dialects, making some of them easy to umderstand, while others are almost as bad as Danes.

In adition to dialects, there are enough unique words and idioms in each language to make especially written norwegian cryptic.

There are also a lot of gotchas where the same words have different meaning. A fun example is the expression "rar tös" meaning "sweet little girl" in Swedish, but "weird slut" in Norwegian.

Re: Why Arabic is Terrific

#102
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your OS? Here's how it looks to me: http://twitpic.com/69kqzg Mac OS X 10.6.8 / Google Chrome 13.0.782.112

Firefox 6 seems to ignore the encoding declaration in the xml prolog. Setting a content-type meta tag should fix this (or setting the encoding in the http headers).

That is because text/html content is not actually parsed as XML.

Re: Why Arabic is Terrific

#103
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Arabic dialects are just that: dialects. They have no grammatical rules, nor a official written form for that matter, and are ultimately used for nothing more than speech.

They have lots of grammatical rules! See http://arabic.desert-sky.net/g_tenses.html , for example. Arabic speakers tend to diss their dialects and dismiss them as 'mere speech', but they're just as rich as any other language.

Yes, but these rules are applied in a spoken form only, not to mention the fact that they are not studied, but are instead learned over time and in no fixed order.

Besides, nobody would write an article in Egyptian Arabic or any other dialect for that matter because it'd simply be a waste of time.

Re: Why Arabic is Terrific

#104
I'm a native English speaker. I studied a little French and speak (and can read/write) some German (with limited vocabulary). For the English speaker, German grammar is painful enough (3 genders, agreement of nouns and adjectives by case, number and article, separable verbs, etc) but, based on what reading I've done, German is still "Latin lite".

A friend of mine (also native English speaker) lives in Taiwan and has learnt traditional Chinese (rather than simplified, as is now taught and used in China). The character memorization, to me at least, is horrifying. But the grammar is fairly simple (apart from tonal variation in words).

The evolution of languages (linguistics I guess) interests me greatly so first up, thanks for the post.

With all these different language systems, one has to wonder how they evolve.

Several events in history are of particular interest.

The first is what happened to English. English in the 10th century was basically the same language as German (Althochdeutsch or Old High German, to be precise). In 1066, the Normans conquered England, bringing French which became the official and court language of England for several centuries.

This had several important effects:

Firstly, many words migrated to English from French and Latin (although there were Latin words previously). Often the English form was "low brow" whereas the Latin/French version were "high brow".

Secondly, without a central authority enforcing a language standard, the language evolved hugely. Old English for Modern English speakers is basically unreadable. Middle English is mostly comprehensible. This was a massive change.

Along the way, English basically lost the concept of case (apart from pronouns), gender (again, apart from pronouns) and word agreement. Grammar was also greatly simplified (almost everything in English is done on word position rather than word ending like most Indo-European languages).

The TL:DR version of this is that there is a reasonable case to be made that a central authority actually stifles language "innovation". If true, one could argue that how arbitrary (rather than regular) a language is is a measure of the state control over that language during its history.

I don't presume to argue that this is true but it's an interesting idea.

The second interesting historical event was the switch in 1929 from the Arabic alphabet to a Latin alphabet for Turkish, which had a massive increase in literacy in the following years (since the alphabet is simple and phonetic).

The third interesting event is the rise of computers. I would argue that is was almost inevitable that this would happen in a country with either the Latin or Cyrilic alphabets. The reasons are:

1. Limited number of characters (think: keyboards and character sets); and

2. Limited variation in those characters (in English: uppercase and lowercase). Compare that to Arabic.

IMHO (1) is incredibly important. In Mandarin, if I want to tell you a new character I have to show you. There is no way to describe it. In English, a new word can be communicate verbally. I don't think you can overstate how important this distinction is.

Asian computer use has evolved a number of schemes to get around these issues, such as character combinations to represent certain characters (which, again, you have to learn) and, more recently, the use of graphics pads to draw characters.

The last thing I wanted to mention was this paper [1], which shows a mathematical relationship between languages becoming regular and the frequency with which words are used (the more a word is used, the longer it takes to become regular).

Anyway, enough rambling on my part.

[1[: http://www.physorg.com/news111241495.html

Re: Why Arabic is Terrific

#105
post #101
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of dialect is quite vague and is generally determined politically. Some like the Chinese "dialects" are generally mutually unintelligible and are actually different languages. On the other end of the spectrum, one may consider Norwegian/Swedish/Danish, which may be treated as dialects of teh same language practically bur are considered separate languages ( http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1…

Treating it as the same language would be a stretch. As a Swede, especially spoken Danish is completely unitelligible. Having worked with Norwegians the last few years, I have learned to understand spoken Norwegian most of the time. There is however a lot of variation i dialects, making some of them easy to umderstand, while others are almost as bad as Danes. In adition to dialects, there are enough unique words and…

Having lived abroad for a large portion of my life: I've seen lots of Scandinavians be able to communicate in some combination of their languages, be it Danes/Norwegians and Norwegians/Swedes. Fins got by by all knowing Swedish, so they all got by mostly in the middle... Interesting to always see them find a middle ground, where us Dutch people always switch to English, the minute someone doesn't know Dutch.

Re: Why Arabic is Terrific

#106
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The books, she is green” is not very unique to Arabic actually. It's also how you'd say it in Polish, for example. Most languages, that have feminine and masculine forms (unlike English), have some arbitrary rules as to what form to assign for different material objects.

You've misunderstood this part. The unusual behavior is not having grammatical gender, but treating all non-human plurals as feminine singular.

Hmm, yes; it seems I did. I hope that my basic premise holds true though — in that this doesn't make Arabic inherently sexist.

Re: Why Arabic is Terrific

#107
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The books, she is green” is not very unique to Arabic actually. It's also how you'd say it in Polish, for example. Most languages, that have feminine and masculine forms (unlike English), have some arbitrary rules as to what form to assign for different material objects.

obligatory noticeable case: swahili (one of the widely studied non-indo european languages) comes with _18_ noun classes.

Swahili is supposedly quite easy compared to Arabic or Amharic (also a Semitic language like Arabic).

Re: Why Arabic is Terrific

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arabic doesn't have a very large sound inventory, but some of the sounds are pretty unfamiliar to people from an indo-european background. I believe there are only two kinds of /s/ (س and ص). The root/pattern system and degree of inflection makes it hard to count words in Arabic (since things like pronouns tend to stick to the ends, throwing off the count). But it is very rich in vocabulary. Arabs love parallelism in…

How about ذ (zal), ز (zaa) and ظ (sor)? Perhaps they are more 'z' than 's'? Then there is ث (tha) though that is more of a 'th' sound I think, but people in the subcontinent pronounce it as an 's'. The differences are really subtle to me.

The pronunciations you've listed are used in some Arabic dialects. In classical Arabic, ذ is pronounced as dhel, and ظ is more of a dhah.

Re: Why Arabic is Terrific

#109

This is a great article, but Firefox chokes on the block at the top, and switches to ISO-8859-1 encoding. Go View -> Character Encoding -> Unicode (UTF-8) to have the Arabic examples render correctly.

Ah, but which Firefox? Rendered perfectly fine in Firefox 7 on Vista 64-bit.

Firefox 9.0a1 (Nightly) / Linux 3.0 x64 has this problem as well. Might be problem with platform rather than browser itself.

Re: Why Arabic is Terrific

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arabic doesn't have a very large sound inventory, but some of the sounds are pretty unfamiliar to people from an indo-european background. I believe there are only two kinds of /s/ (س and ص). The root/pattern system and degree of inflection makes it hard to count words in Arabic (since things like pronouns tend to stick to the ends, throwing off the count). But it is very rich in vocabulary. Arabs love parallelism in…

How about ذ (zal), ز (zaa) and ظ (sor)? Perhaps they are more 'z' than 's'? Then there is ث (tha) though that is more of a 'th' sound I think, but people in the subcontinent pronounce it as an 's'. The differences are really subtle to me.

It's way dialectical, of course, but in MSA at least 'ز' is a [z] sound, 'ث' is a [θ] (as in "three"), while 'ذ' and 'ظ' are variants of [ð] (as in "the")— with ظ being the pharyngealized version, similar to 'د‎' and 'ض'. The differences are much easier to hear than to reproduce :P
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