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New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

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Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#81

The other day I was talking with a friend about the high cost and perceived fragility of tape drives for long term personal archival while bemoaning the loss of higher density optical storage technology. It's not easy to backup or shuffle around terabytes of personal video, audio and pictures. Hard drives aren't exactly the right media for safe deposit boxes. In the 90's I had an Iomega Ditto 250MB drive that held 12…

The problem is that much of the demand for cheap, shelf-stable backup media has gone away over the last decade or two. Most backup jobs either go to cloud or to disk, not tape. And because of that, tape drives are more expensive than ever, which takes away much of the benefit of the cheap media. LTO, for example, is relegated to archival use-cases nowadays, such as video production. You'd think that would make sense,…

> This entirely defeats the purpose of shelf-stable media; if I can't buy newly manufactured drives for old tape formats then who cares if the tapes themselves can sit in a box for 20 years?

Why can't you buy new drives for old tape formats? What new features are these new formats providing?

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#82
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are tape drives fragile? I use them for my long term backups of personal files I thought they were robust ?

What scale are you working at and how have you made it cost-effective versus a stack of external HDDs?

I am not that poster, but I also use tapes.

One may save about $14 per TB by using tapes instead of external HDDs (which strangely have become cheaper than internal HDDs).

In order to recover the cost of the tape drive, you need to write about 200 TB.

I have about 50 LTO-7 tapes, i.e. about 300 TB of compressed archives, so I have recovered much more than I have paid on a LTO-7 tape drive, 5 years ago.

Nevertheless, even if would have written only 100 TB, I would still have bought the tape drive, just for the peace of mind, because after the optical discs became too small I have used HDDs for archival storage, but after a few years in cold storage they become unreliable. If I had not stored duplicates for each HDD, I would have lost a lot of data.

Of course, someone who needs to archive just 20 TB or even 40 TB of raw data, can buy just 2 or 4 HDDs and store each file on 2 HDDs and that should be OK.

For 100 TB or more of raw data (i.e. 200 TB, when counting the redundancy, because also for tapes you should store at least 2 copies, preferably not in the same location), tapes become cheaper.

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#83
post #61
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Dimension in the data sense of the word, not Dimension in the spatial sense of the word. Multi-dimension data is a thing, and it goes a lot higher than 4, 5, or 7.

>I think Dimension in the data sense of the word Where else is that used? At least to me (and the common layperson), the only usage seems to be from people trying to hype up storage mediums. also, if we're using that definition, does that mean I have a 7D SSD? The NAND cells are arranged on both the planar axis, and stacked (3d NAND). That's 3 dimensions. Each NAND cell also encodes data using various charge levels,…

In my physics courses we would routinely talk about 6 dimensional spaces when discussing position-momentum space, also we would sometimes refer to two dimensional objects like a moebius strips as "1-dimensional".

> also, if we're using that definition, does that mean I have a 7D SSD?

Maybe. You can use whatever definitions you want if you feel it's helpful. However, based on your description, if you're using a single bit as a dimension, you should figure out how many bits the the dimensional information encodes. As it stands, it's not clear what you're counting as a 'dimension' in this context. Also, normally we think of degrees of freedom as being independent of each other (hence the claim to 5d in this example). The charge information would normally be thought of as a single degree of freedom, so you'd have a 4d nand disk.

One reason it is helpful to think of "a dimension" as an independent degree of freedom, is that it becomes a parameter you can focus on improving. So if you say "Well what can we change, or make more precise?", the answer for the nand case is "Well, we can't easily add another spatial degree of freedom, but we can improve our stacking to improve how much we can pack into the vertical dimesion (but we're limited by Job's obsession with thinness). We can improve our measurements of spatial resolution, which will affect 3 of our dimensions, but not the charge. We can also improve our charge resolution. Let's figure out which one is cheapest to scale."

Now granted, sometimes tweaking one parameter affects the other, so they aren't strictly independent. You can pack a lot of charge on a NAND, but as the other dimensions get smaller, you start having increased difficulty with leaking.

Anyhow, I think there's more here than you're giving them credit for, even if they are guilty of tooting their own horn a bit (shocking).

But yes, the article presented here would be greatly improved if it gave examples of how to classify existing technology using the researcher's dimensional classification scheme. It's a common scientific writing tactic that I'm surprised was not used here.

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are tape drives fragile? I use them for my long term backups of personal files I thought they were robust ?

Optical discs aren't torn apart when the reader malfunctions?

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/my-cd-shattered-insi...

I've had a CD-ROM back in the day shatter on me like this. I'm pretty sure its a common enough story that everyone 'knows' it could happen... but was rare enough that not everyone personally came across it... but I never got to the bottom of it (why it happened, or what conditions led to it). It only ever happened to me once after all.

It sounds like x56 speed drives were just too fast for some CD-ROMs. We went from x1 speed in the late 80s to x56 speed by the late 90s, so it makes sense that some CD-ROMs just weren't designed for the speed increase and maybe shatter.

Alternatively: maybe some physical damage existed. We beat up CD-ROMs back in the day: storing them in backpacks without protectors and whatever. They were very reliable in terms of reading, but maybe those kinds of mistakes would lead to fractures that would literally blow up on you later.

Even then: the most common protector were paper-sleeves, because dust / scratches were what we were most worried about.

---------

We used to carry around stronger plastic cases in the early 90s. But by 00s, it was all paper-sleeves. The plastic-cases would themselves shatter when carried around, but the CD-ROMs / DVD-ROMs were stronger, lol.

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Temperature? I've yet to experience rot on decades old discs at home. Most sit in a basement that doesn't exceed 68*F

We are mostly talking about burnt discs which achieve their burning via chemical reactions with light. Those disks rot. Any standard Blu-ray/DVD/CD you have has no rotting as it's simply pressed.

While the pressed discs should have a longer life, there are some where the metallic mirror oxidizes in time and it becomes partially transparent, which results in reading errors.

The oxidation speed depends on the quality of the lacquer that protects the mirror (on the label side), so it varies greatly between manufacturers. As an end-user, you cannot predict the lifetime, you can just hope for the best.

There have been archival CDs, with gold used for the mirror instead of aluminum. Those were immune to oxidation, but they have been discontinued, due to high cost.

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#86

The other day I was talking with a friend about the high cost and perceived fragility of tape drives for long term personal archival while bemoaning the loss of higher density optical storage technology. It's not easy to backup or shuffle around terabytes of personal video, audio and pictures. Hard drives aren't exactly the right media for safe deposit boxes. In the 90's I had an Iomega Ditto 250MB drive that held 12…

The problem is that much of the demand for cheap, shelf-stable backup media has gone away over the last decade or two. Most backup jobs either go to cloud or to disk, not tape. And because of that, tape drives are more expensive than ever, which takes away much of the benefit of the cheap media. LTO, for example, is relegated to archival use-cases nowadays, such as video production. You'd think that would make sense,…

Tape drive backwards compatibility is an issue for sure but optical drives have had decent backwards compatibility so far. DVD drives can read CD's. BR drives can read CD, DVD and BR. I think backwards compatibility is more feasible for optical as the larger pits on older media can still be read by narrower wavelengths. They'll just look like giant craters flashing by instead of nice neat pits.

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#87

The other day I was talking with a friend about the high cost and perceived fragility of tape drives for long term personal archival while bemoaning the loss of higher density optical storage technology. It's not easy to backup or shuffle around terabytes of personal video, audio and pictures. Hard drives aren't exactly the right media for safe deposit boxes. In the 90's I had an Iomega Ditto 250MB drive that held 12…

The problem is that much of the demand for cheap, shelf-stable backup media has gone away over the last decade or two. Most backup jobs either go to cloud or to disk, not tape. And because of that, tape drives are more expensive than ever, which takes away much of the benefit of the cheap media. LTO, for example, is relegated to archival use-cases nowadays, such as video production. You'd think that would make sense,…

To add: LTO speeds are currently in the 300MB/s range: if you want > TB size storage you likely don't want ~100MB/s for regular use. I work on systems where we are regularly writing multiple tapes of 5+ TB and if you get only 100MB/s you're waiting hours and if something fails or gets stuck you can be thrown off schedule by more than a day very quickly. Even at the current 300MB/s speeds it's very slow. If personal archival or even small-scale archival is your interest getting network storage is probably easier, faster and cheaper. What's more, is that you have to keep some kind of inventory of your tapes so you know where to find data if you ever need it. Depending on the size of your collection you can be looking for even more expensive equipment to manage the archive of your archives.

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#88
Whether it be this or project Silica, I want my digital permanent storage. Write it in glass, treat it nicely, and yes, you may end up with digital bitrot or whatever, but I want media that stores digital data that cannot physically degrade for hundreds of years, kind of like paper does.

Paperbak being forked and made mainstream, I can accept that. Provided I can also do an automated book printing.

I will also accept holographic stick gum storage a la isolinear chips.

But there has to be more than just tape and blu rays.

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that much of the demand for cheap, shelf-stable backup media has gone away over the last decade or two. Most backup jobs either go to cloud or to disk, not tape. And because of that, tape drives are more expensive than ever, which takes away much of the benefit of the cheap media. LTO, for example, is relegated to archival use-cases nowadays, such as video production. You'd think that would make sense,…

> This entirely defeats the purpose of shelf-stable media; if I can't buy newly manufactured drives for old tape formats then who cares if the tapes themselves can sit in a box for 20 years? Why can't you buy new drives for old tape formats? What new features are these new formats providing?

The new formats have higher storage density than the old ones. First generation LTO (LTO-1) stored 100GB on a tape: how much would you pay for a drive like that today? Unsurprisingly, they don't make them any more. LTO drives are read-compatible with tapes from two generations earlier, so you can read LTO-1 tapes on LTO-3 drives, but LTO-3's capacity was 400GB, so no one buys those any more either. The current generation (LTO-8) has 12TB per tape, so you can see the upgrade treadmill chugging along.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Tape-Open#Generations

Re: New 5D Storage to Offer 10,000x the Density of Blu-ray

#90

Off topic: if I wanted to digital store files to pass down to my children that might not be access for decades , what's the best medium to store such data? Floppy/ZipDrive/CD-ROM/Blueray/USB-A are either obsolete or are on their way out. What's a future proof storage option? (and if you said Cloud Storage {X} - just look at how many services have folded in just the last few years alone). Secondly, what's the best fil…

What kind of files and how much?
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