Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages • Hacker News Board

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#51

Post by hvis » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

rlpb wrote: post #44

0des wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My heater doesn't become less effective each year, requiring replacement. While ASIC concretely implies this, GPU is not excluded if you want to remain competitive (read: generating profit)

You might say that a regular electric heater is 100% efficient, converting every unit of electricity into exactly one unit of equivalent heat. Crypto mining hardware is >100% efficient, as it's exactly as efficient as an electric heater, but also generates revenue. Over time, others make more efficient crypto mining hardware, reducing the yield from yours. This causes your "efficiency" to gradually reduce down to 100…

> Crypto mining hardware is >100% efficient

It also makes the hardware depreciate (simply with the passage of time, but also because of the particular usage), which in practice effects the balance and can easily turn the monetary efficiency into negative.

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#52

Post by bouncycastle » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

likpok wrote: post #43

matheusmoreira wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Electricity = keeps you warm Computers also generate heat. Wish I could use cryptocurrency miners for my heating needs. Why burn fuel or pass current through resistances for that?

Crypto miners are pretty inefficient at heating your home. A heat pump is more than twice as efficient as direct heat.

Yup. Also mining rigs produce a lot of noise, are more likely to break down & need an internet connection 24/7. Not your average heater.

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#53

Post by matheusmoreira » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

vel0city wrote: post #47

matheusmoreira wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Electricity = keeps you warm Computers also generate heat. Wish I could use cryptocurrency miners for my heating needs. Why burn fuel or pass current through resistances for that?

If you're using resistive heating, a computer is about as efficient as a space heater. I have not recently done the math, but I'm pretty sure in my area its still more economically efficient to heat my home with natural gas than resistive heat. Obviously, emissions are a concern, future price uncertainty of fossil fuels, etc. Not the best way forward. However, heat pumps in my area can make a ton of sense. They're fa…

> I have not recently done the math

What calculations are these? How do I figure out if it's worth it?

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#54

Post by that_guy_iain » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

exo762 wrote: post #21

that_guy_iain wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell cryptocurrency's value comes from how much it costs to mine the currency. So that would just affect everyone who isn't mining currency since the miners just offset their costs by selling.

> As far as I can tell cryptocurrency's value comes from how much it costs to mine the currency This is wrong. Multiple currencies use proof-of-stake and still have value. Price is determined by demand and supply.

> Multiple currencies use proof-of-stake and still have value.

Are they Bitcoin valuable? Are they as valuable as proof of work? I think not.

> Price is determined by demand and supply.

So the supply is lower because it's harder to mine so the price goes up and because the price is going up demand is higher. It's kinda like diamonds. Pretty useless but because the big companies hoarde all the diamonds they keep the price high and because the price is high people put value in them.

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#55

Post by notreallyserio » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

eldaisfish wrote: post #5

josephcsible wrote: post #2

Wouldn't it make more sense to just let the price of electricity go up?

this is such a narrow line of thinking. Imaging the hubris required to even suggest that an essential input to daily life should have its price affected by an almost completely useless financial hedge for the elites.

I assumed, based on my experiences as a power consumer, they meant increase the marginal price of electricity above some threshold. That's how electricity is priced everywhere I've lived (US). Maybe it's different on Kazakhstan, although I don't think it'd be hard to implement.

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#56

Post by tablespoon » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #31

Im_your_dada wrote: post #18

Electricity = keeps you warm, cooks your food, powers your devices. Cryptos = suck that energy out of the power grid to gamble with one another.

> Electricity = keeps you warm Computers also generate heat. Wish I could use cryptocurrency miners for my heating needs. Why burn fuel or pass current through resistances for that?

> Computers also generate heat. Wish I could use cryptocurrency miners for my heating needs. Why burn fuel or pass current through resistances for that?

Realistically? Cost. If your goal is to heat a space, it's much cheaper and more reliable to NOT use thousands of dollars of silicon. Doing calculations based on the site below, you might be able to heat a smallish bedroom with a very beefy PC. I can get a space heater that puts out that much heat for less than $50 and is far less likely to stop working (e.g. heatsink gets clogged and system overheats).

https://www.stelpro.com/en/expert-advices/calculating-the-ri...

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#57

Post by cletus » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

And so it begins.

In the developed world in particular, we're seeing the move away from fossil-fuel power. This is good but currently relatively expensive.

Crypto mining is starting to have very real impact on the ability of other people to live. It is adversely and disproportionately affecting poor people (who pay a greater share of their income for power).

And at best crypto provides extremely limited utility for society.

Crypto-mining apologists will point to figures that say "crypto-mining uses mostly renewable energy". What this actually means is that crypto-mining is focused on areas that have hydroelectric power because it's the cheapest, generally.

While you might say that's still good, it's starting to raise prices for other people. this has been an issue in towns on the Hudson Valley in New York, for example.

Even if you believe the overall impact of crypto-mining is small I guarantee you it's only a matter of time before politicians start using crypto-mining as a convenient whipping boy.

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#58

Post by vel0city » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #48

likpok wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto miners are pretty inefficient at heating your home. A heat pump is more than twice as efficient as direct heat.

Can you elaborate? I've seen products that do this, it must be possible.

Resistive heaters use energy to create heat. Heat pumps use energy to move heat.

For a resistive heater, its taking 1 energy unit from the wall and putting 1 energy unit into the air.

A heat pump will use one unit of energy from the wall to take 3-5 units of energy from one side of the system and dump that 3-5 units of energy to the other side of the system.

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#59

Post by trixie_ » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

Im_your_dada wrote: post #18

Electricity = keeps you warm, cooks your food, powers your devices. Cryptos = suck that energy out of the power grid to gamble with one another.

Technically if all electric space heaters were crypto miners as well then crytpo mining would be well distributed, resistant to attack and unprofitable to mine - win, win, win.

Edit: Looks like matheusmoreira below doesn’t understand a 500w electric heater and a 500w crypto miner produce the same amount of heat and use the same amount of electricity.

Re: Kazakhstan to restrict crypto miners amid power shortages

#60

Post by JaimeThompson » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #48

likpok wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto miners are pretty inefficient at heating your home. A heat pump is more than twice as efficient as direct heat.

Can you elaborate? I've seen products that do this, it must be possible.

This explains it far better than I can. https://www.popularmechanics.com/home/outdoor-projects/a2586...