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How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

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Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#101

Post by toyg »

JoeDaDude wrote: post #70
handrous wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK there's no reason to favor English translations of the Old Testament (or anything else) that use now-archaic English, except maybe for passages which are themselves written, in the original, in a kind of archaic or very formal mode, relative to the rest. It can be accurate enough (for whatever purpose—poetic, literal accuracy, et c.) without being stuffy or outdated. Another factor in my naming it the probably…

I remember Michael Wood's TV series about the Iliad and he mentioned the repetition in it. He then showed a modern day Armenian troubadour (for lack of a better word) singing a story with instrumental accompaniment to a rapt audience [1]. Is the repetition a clue that maybe these poems were meant to be sung, and not read? [1] https://youtu.be/64QPz2t5T3A?t=1027

They were meant to be told around a campfire, by people who could not read or write. The repetition was a mnemonic helper, a storytelling device to impress character traits (e.g. instead of saying "Batman" you say "Batman, the Dark Knight"), and a way to take time to think about the next step in the tale (in a way similar to rappers reaching for certain words over and over, as "crutches", because they know they are easy to rhyme).

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#102

Post by toyg »

369548684892826 wrote: post #85
lordleft wrote: post #50

I find Gilgamesh deeply moving. Near the end of the epic, Gilgamesh embarks on a quest for immortality, impelled by grief over the death of his friend Enkidu. After travails and adventures, immortality escapes him, and he is consoled with the following verse: "What you seek you shall never find. For when the Gods made man, They kept immortality to themselves. Fill your belly. Day and night make merry. Let Days be ful…

> Near the end of the epic, Gilgamesh embarks on a quest for immortality This needs a spoiler alert!

Do you really want a spoiler alert on a tale that is thousands of years old...? It would be like talking of the Gospels and going "SPOILER ALERT! the guy dies but he comes back"...

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#104

Post by tomjakubowski »

toyg wrote: post #102
369548684892826 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Near the end of the epic, Gilgamesh embarks on a quest for immortality This needs a spoiler alert!

Do you really want a spoiler alert on a tale that is thousands of years old...? It would be like talking of the Gospels and going "SPOILER ALERT! the guy dies but he comes back"...

"Talk about a preachy book! Everybody's a sinner?—except for this guy..." https://youtu.be/8OPJYbgD45Q

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#105

Post by thaumasiotes »

handrous wrote: post #63
jedimastert wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anything about it, is there a single canonical translation? If not, which one would you recommend to someone who, lets say, wants to read for enjoyment more but is woefully out of practice

I dunno about "canonical", but, as others have mentioned, Stephen Mitchell's version is good. It reads very easily without, as I understand it, taking too many liberties with the text. I'm sure there are retellings that are even smoother, but I doubt you can do much better for casual reading with anything else that's at least fairly faithful to the original. Mitchell's careful to (accurately) frame his as a new versi…

> It reads very easily without, as I understand it, taking too many liberties with the text. I'm sure there are retellings that are even smoother, but I doubt you can do much better for casual reading with anything else that's at least fairly faithful to the original.

For something much closer to the other extreme, I have a version by Stephanie Dalley which seems to prioritize being faithful to the original over basically everything else. Here's a (particularly unsmooth) extract:

    [Shamash] heard the words
    of Gilgamesh, Scion of Uruk, [and said],
      'As soon as a loud voice from the sky calls down
        to him,
      Rush, stand up to him, let him not [enter the
        forest (?)],
      Let him not go down to the wood,
        nor [        ].
      [Humbaba] will [not] be clothed in seven cloaks,
      He will be wearing [only one]; six are taken
        off (?).
      Like a charging wild bull which
        pierces [          ]
      He shouts only once, but fills one with terror.
      The guardian of the forests will shout  [     ]
      [                                             ]
      Humbaba like [             ] will shout.
      
           (gap of uncertain length)
      
    As soon as the swords [                         ]
    [           ] from the sheaths [                ]
    Streaked with verdigris (?) [                   ]
    Dagger, sword, [                                ]
    One [                                           ]
    They wore [                                     ]
    Humbaba [made his voice heard and spoke (?)]
      'He will not go (?) [                         ]
      He will not go (?) [                          ]
    
        (7 lines illegible)
    
      May Ellil [             ].'
It's not the easiest thing to read, but I like being so close to the actual text. If it's in this translation, it's there on a cuneiform tablet somewhere. (Or guessed in a very conservative way, like guessing that "Humbaba [______________]" should be filled in as "Humbaba made his voice heard" when that line is immediately followed by quoted speech.)

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#106

Post by drieddust »

nindalf wrote: post #59
randoglando wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when I say the main character of the Ramayana is a bit dull, one dimensional and treats his wife terribly. On the mark there. What about the character of Krishna (an amalgamation of 3 tribal gods)? Especially the little child Krishna? From the perspective of the story Mahabharata is superior, but the Ramayana has some great characters (Hanuman, Lakshmana, Sita, Ravana). The Mahabharata's heroes are weaker character…

What conflict did any of the characters in the Ramayana face? Hanuman for example, decides to do Rama’s bidding and then does it. The only major dilemma he faces is whether he should bring the cure for Lakshmana or the entire mountain containing the cure. He goes with the latter. Same with Lakshmana. Only conflict I can recall is when he is told to abandon Sita in the woods. He is torn, but decides to anyway. Compare…

> Compare these two to Bheeshma and Karna, who spend their entire lives torn by conflicting loyalties.

Karna is a legend generated in recent times. In most editions of Mahabharata, he is willingly standing on the wrong side of justice willingly. He didn't even care for the well being of his supposedly friend Duryodhana. Here is a talk[0] and book[1] by Mahabharata researcher.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nge8qc7f_k&list=LL&index=35

[1] https://www.amazon.in/Mahabharata-Unravelled-Lesser-Known-We...

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#107

Post by drieddust »

awa wrote: post #56
randoglando wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when I say the main character of the Ramayana is a bit dull, one dimensional and treats his wife terribly. On the mark there. What about the character of Krishna (an amalgamation of 3 tribal gods)? Especially the little child Krishna? From the perspective of the story Mahabharata is superior, but the Ramayana has some great characters (Hanuman, Lakshmana, Sita, Ravana). The Mahabharata's heroes are weaker character…

Personally, I feel the characters in Mahabharata are more shades of grey (rather than just Good or Bad) unlike Ramayana which is portrayed as a fight between Good vs Bad. Even Krishna's role has a lot of valid criticism in terms of the little he does to avoid the war (being a god and all). The closest clean character seems to be Karna who is on the losing side.

> Even Krishna's role has a lot of valid criticism in terms of the little he does to avoid the war (being a god and all). The closest clean character seems to be Karna who is on the losing side.

My apologies but both statements doesn't stand if you read the original work of Ved Vyasa or a faithful translation of it. One single incident disproves both the statement. I am not a Mahabharata expert but this proves how false legends have spread around texts like Mahabharata and Ramayana.

Krishna went as diplomat to settle the dispute without war. As a final proposal, he offered to settle the dispute just for 5 villages. Duryodhana under influence of Karna said "I will not give land worth a needle's tip." and that was the end of all negotiations.

Edit: Please refer to my other comment for details about Karna's Character.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#108

Post by gremloni »

handrous wrote: post #8

I'm not an expert but I've probably read a whole lot more Near East literature than, considered over a population of billions, nearly everyone. In English translation, but still. A half dozen volumes, I think, cover to cover? Maybe seven? Gilgamesh is the only work out of all of that, that I'd recommend to pretty much anyone who likes literature. Egypt has a couple promising, if relatively late, tales, but both are o…

Stray into the south and Far East. They have incredible stories.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#109

Post by gremloni »

emodendroket wrote: post #15
handrous wrote: post #8

I'm not an expert but I've probably read a whole lot more Near East literature than, considered over a population of billions, nearly everyone. In English translation, but still. A half dozen volumes, I think, cover to cover? Maybe seven? Gilgamesh is the only work out of all of that, that I'd recommend to pretty much anyone who likes literature. Egypt has a couple promising, if relatively late, tales, but both are o…

The Ramayana sounded like fun though it's hard to figure out which version you're supposed to read.

He said near East. The Mahabharata be ramayanan are only the best know stories out of India. There are hundreds of prominent works and millions of stories.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#110

Post by gremloni »

handrous wrote: post #18
emodendroket wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ramayana sounded like fun though it's hard to figure out which version you're supposed to read.

Yeah, that's why I specified "Near East". I know there's supposed to be some really good, very early material from India, but I've not gotten to it yet, so I can't say whether Gilgamesh stands up to the best of that. There is, for sure, an intimidating amount of it, so it has that going for it.

India has good material all the way into the Middle Ages and a little pat that as well.
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