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Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt

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Re: Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt

#531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the end game of the baby boomers and economy really. Collectively everyone is hoarding onto property for their nest egg, investment funds get piles of their money from 401ks and pensions as well to invest into areas like real estate. A large chunk of retirement is now predicated on maintaining or increasing property values. The fed is now so fucked it can't even raise rates without immediately causing propert…

The solution is simple. Raise rates and let asset prices normalize, regardless of the consequences. There will be pain in the short term, but you're creating opportunity for future generations. Policy right now is all about pulling prosperity from the future into the present. IE higher valuation multiples today enrich current asset holders, but leave little growth for future asset holders It used to be that the Fed w…

> It used to be that the Fed was not too focused on asset valuations, and actually drove policy on the basis of their mandates. Unfortunately they're too cowardly to do that anymore.

From the financial crisis to COVID low interest rates (and inflating asset prices) seemed almost a consequence of their inflation+unemployment mandate: even with the interest rate around zero unemployment was slow to come down and inflation was mostly in financial assets and not the consumer price level.

Post-COVID seems to be a different story though. I guess we'll see in the next year or so how they react if the inflation pressure turns out to be persistent - personally I wouldn't be surprised if they do raise rates, even though that would obviously lower most asset prices.

Re: Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt

#532
post #15

This is a good example of the fallacy of youth: buying too far into hype and being all "the sky is falling" with negative news. It wasn't long ago that we were reading how Zillow et al were going to buy up all the housing stock and keep millenials and Zoomers homeless forever. The people saying this have obviously never gone through a "bust" cycle. This is unsurprising as we've now been in the longest bull market in…

Fired? Zillow has explored the market and is making an operating profit on these "losses". They charge exorbitant fees to sellers, effectively buying properties at a decent market discount, while publicly showing a sale price above market so as to inflate the price.

Even though the first go at it may have failed due to whatever reason (stated or otherwise), whoever signed off on this should be promoted.

Re: Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A note on the mortgage: I understand your aversion to debt, but choosing a shorter duration mortgage can increase the probability of default, even if it shortens the time to the point that you are debt free, because for any given amount of cash reserves you have it shortens the runway you have if you lose your income. As long as mortgage money is cheap, the most profitable course of action is to use the 30 year mortg…

Compound interest means that you will be paying a lot more money for the same house if you buy over 30 rather than 15 years. However, for someone disciplined, taking a 30 year mortgage and paying it off like a 15 year mortgage with significant over payments is a good strategy. It means if you need to tighten your belt you can always drop down to the normal payment for a spell without so much as having to speak to the…

> for someone disciplined, taking a 30 year mortgage and paying it off like a 15 year mortgage with significant over payments is a good strategy.

This is the worst of both worlds. You pay the interest penalty of a 30 year, with the payment of a 15 year (well, slightly more). The interest difference between a 30 and 15 year mortgage is about 30% (2.x% v 3.x% APR).

I did a 15 year mortgage, then refinanced it every 12m or so ($250 each time), resetting the payments back to 180 months each time. That way, I get the interest savings of a 15 year, which is significant, and each refinance makes your payment quite a bit lower because a 15 year loan actually pays back principal. After six years, my mortgage will be the same as it would have been if I originally got a 30 year, but it will be paid off in 21 years instead of 30.

There's a risk interest rates rise, or I lose my job and can't refinance. But so far, so good. And honestly, my mortgage now is so close to what it would have been with an original 30 year loan that it doesn't even matter if I can never refinance. The hardest part was the first two years.

Re: Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt

#535
post #98
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decades of under-building due to restrictive zoning laws will do that.

Not everywhere is California

No it's not, but everyone selling their house for 1 million dollars in California is indeed going everywhere and outbidding the locals.

Re: Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt

#536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is simple. Raise rates and let asset prices normalize, regardless of the consequences. There will be pain in the short term, but you're creating opportunity for future generations. Policy right now is all about pulling prosperity from the future into the present. IE higher valuation multiples today enrich current asset holders, but leave little growth for future asset holders It used to be that the Fed w…

> It used to be that the Fed was not too focused on asset valuations, and actually drove policy on the basis of their mandates. Unfortunately they're too cowardly to do that anymore. From the financial crisis to COVID low interest rates (and inflating asset prices) seemed almost a consequence of their inflation+unemployment mandate: even with the interest rate around zero unemployment was slow to come down and inflat…

Well, it's true that inflation was largely in check over the past decade.

But keep in mind that in the 1970's, home prices were actually included in the CPI. If this were still the case today, we would actually see inflation levels similar to what we saw in the 70s.

The CPI formula has been changed many times over the years, to suppress inflation numbers. There are strong incentives to do this, as Social Security and many other things are tied to the CPI.

There are logical arguments for these changes though. Homes are financed goods, and consumption can be considered the monthly carrying cost and not the value of the asset. However, ignoring "asset inflation" has led to much worse wealth inequality IMO. It would be better to continue to include national average home prices. Nowadays, there's a measure called Owners Equivalent Rents that partially gauge this. But there are tons of methodological flaws in how rent equivalent data is collected for CPI that lead to both underreporting, and a lag of ~12 months. e.g. Rents are up about 20% nationally since the pandemic started, but CPI has shown roughly 3.5% so far. The next few months should start to show the full extent of rental increases.

Now that car prices are causing a large increase in CPI, don't be surprised when they alter the measurement of these factors next year. They'll use some measure like average monthly car payment.

Also keep in mind that unemployment was around 10% post GFC, and took about 10 years to get close to full employment. That was quite a large shock that took a long while to recover from.

The market did fall something like 20% in 2018 as the Fed raised rates to preempt inflation, but they chickened out and reversed course and market immediately rallied back all gains.

And as you said, it's pretty clear right now they are dragging their feet on doing anything post COVID. I'm pretty sure Powell is really optimizing for retaining his job, since his term ends very soon... otherwise they really shouldn't care about market movements to such an extent.

They will almost certainly announce the taper tomorrow, but expect it to be wrapped in all kinds of dovish language to juice assets/speculation further.

Regardless of short term interest rate peg, they should absolutely not be buying bonds to suppress long term rates. They have been continuing an "emergency" bond buying program for a full year beyond what was reasonable to most people. I mean, why are they buying 120B worth of bonds every month, as housing prices have gone up something like 30% nationally? They are terminally afraid that if they can't manipulate long term rates lower through QE, that rates will rise and market or housing will tank. Well, we'll find out soon enough

Re: Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt

#537

Former real estate finance professional, here. If you were hoping this was a sign of the real estate market falling and perhaps its your chance to get a bargain, think again. > The company is seeking roughly $2.8 billion for the houses, which are being pitched to institutional investors, according to people familiar with the matter. Institutional investors (Blackstone, Blackrock, Colony, et al) will be being in bulk,…

This would be easy to fix with legislative that makes property taxes much higher for investment home properties. I don't think I've ever heard of a politician even talking about that though.

another thing you can do is raise the interest rate on the mortgage for investment properties. This is already done somewhat but they could increase it quite a bit. Can't really pass the cost onto the renter either because the market supply/demand dynamics sets the rental rates, not the owner.

Re: Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but feel this is another bubble. I'm paid very well, in a not well paying region. So I'm wondering where all these folks are getting their money from. Even those new Ryan Homes which are cookie cutter and made out of pure vinyl are going for $250K. Maybe my doom-ish outlook is because I'm a millenial so I'm used to everything being bad.

same. even though I make good living, buying house seems difficult - it's a lot of money for many years. add closing costs and misc repairs, and owning appears to be quite expensive. I wouldn't know what to do if at any point within next 10 years I lost the job.

Are there not any alternative employers where you live (including remote)? Do you have an emergency fund to cover living expenses if you lose your job? The reason I pry is 10 years is a long time to not be able to get together a 3-6 month emergency fund (if you don’t already have one).

Re: Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt

#539

Former real estate finance professional, here. If you were hoping this was a sign of the real estate market falling and perhaps its your chance to get a bargain, think again. > The company is seeking roughly $2.8 billion for the houses, which are being pitched to institutional investors, according to people familiar with the matter. Institutional investors (Blackstone, Blackrock, Colony, et al) will be being in bulk,…

I agree. I wish people understood more of what these "institutional investors" are doing. The Fed has essentially trapped us in a system where the likes of blackrock get access to essentially free Fed printing press money right of the rollers that they then use to buy up real assets at inflated prices, which only drives up the inflation that thereby also drives up the value of previous purchases at near zero rate int…

> The Fed has essentially trapped us in a system where the likes of blackrock get access to essentially free Fed printing press money right of the rollers that they then use to buy up real assets at inflated prices, which only drives up the inflation that thereby also drives up the value of previous purchases at near zero rate interest.

It's a trendy thing to say, especially in certain political circles, but could you substantiate it with something from a serious, non-partisan economist? AFAIK, for example, inflation isn't much related to it - rates have been very low for a long time, sans inflation.

> the Fed has the tiger by the tail and is paralyzed with fear

Again, anything substantive to support this? They are 'paralyzed with fear'?

Re: Zillow seeks to sell 7k homes for $2.8B after flipping halt

#540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. I sold a condo to Opendoor recently and it was unlisted, just a private transaction. They overpaid very generously too.

> They overpaid very generously too. How do you know without getting bids from the open market ?

I sold another condo in this same complex 2 months ago through a real estate agent. Far more painful process and got much less. Also see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29087989

Opendoor still holds it, Zillow is already marking down a similar one by 14%.

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