People who have unusual, or non-existent, inner voices • Hacker News Board

Re: People who have unusual, or non-existent, inner voices

#81

Post by micromacrofoot » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

There’s a lack of this inner thought which is an actual condition people have, but I’ve discussed with people before who thought they lacked it… and really it was a misunderstanding based on how it’s described. I have an inner voice and can picture things… but it’s important to note this is “mind’s eye” stuff… it’s not literally equivalent to seeing or hearing something.

When I picture something in my mind and close my eyes, it’s not equivalent to sight… it’s a representation of my a priori knowledge of something. Kind of a mental mirage.

Re: People who have unusual, or non-existent, inner voices

#82

Post by helaoban » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

GPerson wrote: post #70

helaoban wrote: post #48

Sometimes when I'm lost in thought a sound, a voice or a piece of music that I heard recently is almost completely reproduced in my brain, like I'm actually hearing it again. It's a subconscious act, I don't think I've ever been able to will that sensation consciously, but once it happens I can sustain it for almost a minute or two (especially music). I have a very "strong" internal monologue, talking to myself all d…

I used to have sleep paralysis a lot and during at least one episode I could hear, clear as day, a full orchestra playing in my head as if it was coming from somewhere in the house. And when I broke out of the sleep paralysis there was no sound at all.

Yes! I've also had similar experiences during episodes of sleep paralysis. Interesting.

When I'm awake it happens during periods of deep day-dreaming.

Re: People who have unusual, or non-existent, inner voices

#83

Post by floatingatoll » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 9:57 PM UTC

titusjohnson wrote: post #56

floatingatoll wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no other self in my head to debate with. Except when I’m specifically thinking about what someone else would say, in which case I can get fragments of phrases enough to sort-of rehearse different branches of a conversation. I also can’t play chess against myself, because I can see my own logic on both sides, and it nullifies.

Well, I don't have an "other self" to debate with, I know it's just me. It's like a verbal exercise, where you go through a conversation and prepare responses to expected objections or questions. Similar to playing chess against myself, there's only use if I am super strict about trying to make "each side" as honest as possible.

I am terrible at the verbal exercise you describe, so I just end up mapping it out as branches and look for any that trigger a question mark and look for patterns between the question marks and see if anything shows up.

Re: People who have unusual, or non-existent, inner voices

#84

Post by titusjohnson » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 9:57 PM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #68

floatingatoll wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I glance at the paragraph, it glows briefly, I blink, I trace a spiral from the center counter clockwise, and if I still don’t have comprehension, I go back a couple paragraphs or try again the agonizing word by word way. Sometimes I read left to right to left depending on text width and such. I can usually keep math in the right order but I'm known to add left-to-right which involves the concept of 'one past nine' a…

> I trace a spiral from the center counter clockwise, and if I still don’t have comprehension, I go back a couple paragraphs or try again the agonizing word by word way Wow. What?

My experience on reading isn't as dramatic as the person you're replying to, but similar.

I read whole paragraphs and/or sentences in one go. I don't really know "how" I do it, and there are limits (it really, really helps to know the author and their writing style). My eyes hit the paragraph, flick to see the end of it, traverse back up half-scanning each line, then I scan through the lines from the top, and afterwards I know what the paragraph was saying. It takes a few seconds per paragraph.

I can't recite it verbatim but I can effectively describe the content of the paragraph accurately.

If I have to read something word-for-word it's so slow that I tend to get bored or frustrated quickly. I don't find that slow, word-for-word reading gives me much more than by inhaling paragraphs whole.

Re: People who have unusual, or non-existent, inner voices

#85

Post by psyc » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 9:57 PM UTC

hanoz wrote: post #71

As with perennial Hacker News favourite Aphantasia, the discussion does leave me with the distint impression that the spectrum of reported condition is more a function of our inability to convey and compare the inner experience, than of variation in the inner experience itself.

When others say they can see images and movies in their heads, and hear voices and play back songs in their heads, I believe I know exactly what they mean. Just as if they were describing itching or feeling cold.

Yet some people respond with “You can see pictures? You can hear voices? WAT?? I see nothing and hear nothing!”

I don’t see how those people could be having the common experience and still be so shocked to hear how others experience it in simple terms.

Re: People who have unusual, or non-existent, inner voices

#86

Post by floatingatoll » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #57

floatingatoll wrote: post #2

Hey, it’s me! I’m one of the “inner silence” folks, in case anyone has questions. Didn’t realize y’all heard voices until five years ago.

I'd love to be you at bedtime. That's when the voices love to just ruin your day/night.

As it turns out, anxiety-insomnia is just as much a problem whether it's with voices or not :(

Re: People who have unusual, or non-existent, inner voices

#87

Post by rossnordby » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #4

floatingatoll wrote: post #2

Hey, it’s me! I’m one of the “inner silence” folks, in case anyone has questions. Didn’t realize y’all heard voices until five years ago.

I didn't read the article yet but since you're offering... how do you "think through" problems? Example, this was a dialogue I had in my head this morning: "Avenue X has a lot of stop signs which is annoying. But Avenue Y is narrow and it's garbage-pickup time, so I can get unlucky and really stuck behind a garbage truck. That's not worth the risk, I'd rather deal with the stop signs so I am taking avenue X" What is…

Not OP, but: if you're thirsty and there's a cup of water nearby, presumably you don't need to verbalize the full set of motor commands necessary to move your arm, grasp the cup, and so on. It's a pretty complicated motion involving quite a few decisions, but they're decisions that don't involve verbal ability. (Or at least I assume that's the case.)

For me, at least, most thinking feels like a version of that, but generalized. That doesn't mean it's necessarily easy- I can't come up with a fancy new algorithm by just desiring it momentarily- but most things just don't need words to be thought.

If I want to figure out if, say, some geometric modification obeys some property, the content of the thoughts is the spatial reasoning directly. I can go back and explain the thoughts verbally, but the words are just labels for the more 'native' reasoning.

In my case, I can still think things verbally, though it does seem closer to subvocalization than full inner voice as described. No aphantasia for me either.

Re: People who have unusual, or non-existent, inner voices

#88

Post by floatingatoll » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 10:01 PM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #68

floatingatoll wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I glance at the paragraph, it glows briefly, I blink, I trace a spiral from the center counter clockwise, and if I still don’t have comprehension, I go back a couple paragraphs or try again the agonizing word by word way. Sometimes I read left to right to left depending on text width and such. I can usually keep math in the right order but I'm known to add left-to-right which involves the concept of 'one past nine' a…

> I trace a spiral from the center counter clockwise, and if I still don’t have comprehension, I go back a couple paragraphs or try again the agonizing word by word way Wow. What?

I don't know, man. I work with my brain as best I can. Some pages of books are an entire page of "glance, glance, okay, that's all meaningless" next-page. But I also remember books as intensely as TV or in-person experiences, if not moreso.

If I'm trying to figure out whether what I've just written will make any sense to other human beings, sometimes I'll say a fragment of it out loud to hear the emotion and make sure it's landing properly. My edit history on HN is probably >99% of my comments have edits within sixty seconds of sending it, because Fixed-width reads different than Sans-serif, and I can't absorb many Fixed-width fonts very well in white-on-black, certainly not whatever the browser defaults are. (InputMono Light dethroned Menlo Regular after ten years in my Terminal, and I miss it any time I'm in the browser. Yes, I know I how to fix that in the browser.)

Reading is the inverse but the same: sometimes I have to do five passes on a paragraph or page, just to fully grasp whatever it's trying to say.

Re: People who have unusual, or non-existent, inner voices

#89

Post by ManuelKiessling » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 10:02 PM UTC

checkyoursudo wrote: post #41

boc wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So wait, if you close your eyes and picture Mount Everest, you can't see Mount Everest in your head? For me it's easy to "fly" around my neighborhood just by closing my eyes and remembering what the streets and trees and houses look like as I take a lap. I can see off into the distance, I can see the sidewalk cracks, I can see people... all of them are obviously fuzzed versions of reality but nonetheless they're rela…

If I close my eyes, I can see nothing. If I keep my eyes open, I can sort of barely super-impose some ghostly relief of the thing I am supposedly imagining. My wife can see like full Technicolor motion pictures in her mind with special effects and superstar cameos. I am jealous. My mind is seriously black when I close my eyes. On the plus side for me, it is super easy for me to fall asleep whenever I want, because it…

This is so incredible for me to, well, imagine (no pun intended).

I’m super curious now and hope you don’t mind.

If you are currently not outside your house, and I ask you to tell me how many windows your house has – and I also ask you to not step outside your house and not go from room to room, literally counting the windows – how would you do this?

When I do this, I can‘t help to go from room to room in my mind, visualizing each room in my mind, and, well, basically count the windows from the images in my mind.

I can’t imagine how else one could do this! And I assume you are nevertheless able to tell me from memory the number of windows in your house, even without physically visiting each room and also assuming that you don’t just happen to know the number by heart (I don’t for my house, and it‘s a small house – yet I have to „visit“ each room mentally and visually).

Or are you? As said, really curious!

I mean, if you don’t happen to know the number by heart, and you also aren’t allow to count them in person, but you ALSO only see a blank space when closing your eyes – in a way, you shouldn’t be able to answer that question…? Or am I missing something?

Re: People who have unusual, or non-existent, inner voices

#90

Post by id » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 10:03 PM UTC

micromacrofoot wrote: post #81

There’s a lack of this inner thought which is an actual condition people have, but I’ve discussed with people before who thought they lacked it… and really it was a misunderstanding based on how it’s described. I have an inner voice and can picture things… but it’s important to note this is “mind’s eye” stuff… it’s not literally equivalent to seeing or hearing something. When I picture something in my mind and close…

>There’s a lack of this inner thought which is an actual condition people have

I find this so hard to believe. Are these people even conscious? I can solve math equations, think about my life, write code... all without any inner voice, especially when I'm in a flow state. When I do have an inner voice, I would describe it more like talking to myself without actually mouthing words. But never, ever did I have no "inner thought" at all. Like, I'm always aware of myself and that I'm thinking.

The “mind’s eye” stuff you described very well, I think.