If you are interested in podcasts Literature and History has one about the epic of Gilgamesh
https://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/2/c/4/2c43483ca62d212a/episode_00...
How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)
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Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh, that's absolutely a big part of it. There was no "reading public". Very few people could read and write. I assume all the repetition has to do with making the stories better-suited to memorization and oral retelling. I don't mean any of that as some kind of put-down of the ancients, it's just a fact that a modern reader is going to find the material difficult, and, even once acclimated to the difficulty, of limit…
I would imagine the repetition benefits the listening audience since there is a chance they may not hear something or may miss the significance of something the first time it is spoken.
It maybe also benefits a setup where the story is told/sung in small chunks over several days, so you don't forget what happened in the previous episode?
Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)
#83Overall these are some of the best comments I've ever seen on HN:
1) Recommendations of follow-up reading
2) Life experiences and hobbyist opinions
Just a real great example of the intellectual curiosity we all look for on HN
Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
It depends a lot on the translation I suppose, because my experience with the old testament was rather unpleasant - reading it in centuries-old language brought me no joy at all.
AFAIK there's no reason to favor English translations of the Old Testament (or anything else) that use now-archaic English, except maybe for passages which are themselves written, in the original, in a kind of archaic or very formal mode, relative to the rest. It can be accurate enough (for whatever purpose—poetic, literal accuracy, et c.) without being stuffy or outdated. Another factor in my naming it the probably…
> The Eloquent Peasant
The Eloquent Peasant is a fascinating little work. For those who aren't familiar with it, it's the story of a peasant who owns a donkey. There's a farmer alongside the road who has allowed his crops to grow right up to the path, knowing that passing draft animals will occasionally eat his crops. This allows him to take the owners of the animals to court, including the peasant in the story.
But when the peasant arrives in court, he speaks with great eloquence. The judge is so impressed that he decides to drag out the trial to hear more of these speeches. He sends off a note to someone important (the pharaoh or the governor or someone), saying, "Hey, you need to hear this guy!"
The peasant, assuming the court is corrupt, gives another speech about the importance of honest courts. And so it continues, with the peasant holding forth on justice and government.
It's a brilliantly subversive little tale. The core of it is political rhetoric. The "framing story" is an amusing tale about a peasant with a donkey. And the officials in the story are secretly delighted by the peasant's eloquent speeches about good government. It's a way to discuss politics without making the pharaoh look bad, basically.
By ancient standards, it's pretty remarkable. The framing tale and the subtle subversion feel more modern than other works from that era. But as the parent post suggested, it would probably work best told as a tale by someone who could switch between the humor and politics.
Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)
#85I find Gilgamesh deeply moving. Near the end of the epic, Gilgamesh embarks on a quest for immortality, impelled by grief over the death of his friend Enkidu. After travails and adventures, immortality escapes him, and he is consoled with the following verse: "What you seek you shall never find. For when the Gods made man, They kept immortality to themselves. Fill your belly. Day and night make merry. Let Days be ful…
> Near the end of the epic, Gilgamesh embarks on a quest for immortality
This needs a spoiler alert!
Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)
#86I had a class in college that focused in large part on Gilgamesh. It was one of the few classes I enjoyed in college. I loved that my very religious teacher said the flood story in Gilgamesh added to the validity of the Bible since it is another historical account of a large flood. I thought it did the opposite and showed that the Bible is just another book of myths with some historical events peppered in, like Gilga…
The “validity” of the Bible is an ill-posed concept. It’s neither valid nor invalid.
It’s pretty poor as a history, but a treasure as a historical document.
Understood literally, it’s bizarre, contradictory and rambling. Read in cultural and historical context it’s an enlightening (if not _inspired_ ) look at mankind’s place in the cosmos and how one should live knowing that you will die.
Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)
#87I had a class in college that focused in large part on Gilgamesh. It was one of the few classes I enjoyed in college. I loved that my very religious teacher said the flood story in Gilgamesh added to the validity of the Bible since it is another historical account of a large flood. I thought it did the opposite and showed that the Bible is just another book of myths with some historical events peppered in, like Gilga…
Or maybe the Bible and Gilgamesh comes from the need to pass on important lessons and facts to the next chunk of humans i.e. this is why it's important to learn how to make boats, sometimes climate changes and you need a backup plan, don't eat pork because God says so -- and also because if not properly cooked you'll get trichinosis (they didn't know this but throwing a label of pork = evil is good enough). If you re…
Yup. If you lived in tribes the 10 commandments would be a pretty solid set of rules to make sure you don't all kill each other.
Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh, that's absolutely a big part of it. There was no "reading public". Very few people could read and write. I assume all the repetition has to do with making the stories better-suited to memorization and oral retelling. I don't mean any of that as some kind of put-down of the ancients, it's just a fact that a modern reader is going to find the material difficult, and, even once acclimated to the difficulty, of limit…
In a world in which most "literature" was memorized and then performed orally, repetition had a few key functions: 1) making it easier to tell a part of the story (an audience probably wouldn't listen to the whole thing in one go); 2) making it easier to memorize (while also allowing the performer/bard some time to "autopilot" and remember what comes next); 3) making the meter fit (this is why you'll see the same epi…
This seems analogous to some documentaries and TV shows that restart the story pretty much from the beginning at 15 minute intervals, after each commercial break. Basically allow people latch on that just joined or were not paying attention. It must have been equally tormenting to the ancients.
Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've always wondered, how certain is our understanding of Akkadian? Could the dirge singer have been a tap dancer? My very small awareness of the history made it sound fairly speculative.
It would seem the language is understood quite well, but the cultural context of its use not so much. Akkadian is a Semitic language, quite distantly related to Arabic and Hebrew, etc. So we know what its siblings turned into, and we have a vague guess for what its unwritten ancestor was like. There are also some surviving bilingual and trilingual Akkadian texts especially in the later period. That includes with Anci…
Thanks for that!
Sounds a little like a cantor, actually.
Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)
#90I'm not an expert but I've probably read a whole lot more Near East literature than, considered over a population of billions, nearly everyone. In English translation, but still. A half dozen volumes, I think, cover to cover? Maybe seven? Gilgamesh is the only work out of all of that, that I'd recommend to pretty much anyone who likes literature. Egypt has a couple promising, if relatively late, tales, but both are o…
The Ramayana sounded like fun though it's hard to figure out which version you're supposed to read.
Figuring out what Ramayana and Mahabharata versions to read is irritatingly difficult.
The popular English translation written by white people are often a bastardization of the classics from a Woke lens. Others are outright further-fictionalizing accounts to suit a narrative flow as if this was a Steve Jobs biography.
The more faithful english translations are written by scholars who won't consider English to be their first language. So the quality of prose is lacking and epics reads more like textbooks. Hindi and other native language works are pretty good, but my proficiency in them is restricted to speech.
I am still on a search for a book that strikes the right balance. A few hindu historians & intellectuals have started writing incredible English language books. I would count Sanjeev Sanyal, Vikram Sampath and Tharoor as institutionally important writers who want to tell the story of India & Indic traditions by looking past the Delhi-focused view of our rather shoddy academic institutions.
I hope to read more works that conduct primary research instead of regurgitating a few 200 yr. works by british historians that can often veer on outright propaganda. It is the age of much needed revisionism in Indian scholarship. I am glad to see it be rooted in evidence, and not counter propaganda. That being said, I hope they get to continue contributing before the academic establishment decides to fully sideline them for being counter narrative.