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How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

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Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#71

Post by whakim »

handrous wrote: post #60
soco wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess they were not writing stuff for "readers"? This might be a well-known theory of which I'm just unaware, but could it be that writing fulfilled a different role/need in those epochs?

Oh, that's absolutely a big part of it. There was no "reading public". Very few people could read and write. I assume all the repetition has to do with making the stories better-suited to memorization and oral retelling. I don't mean any of that as some kind of put-down of the ancients, it's just a fact that a modern reader is going to find the material difficult, and, even once acclimated to the difficulty, of limit…

In a world in which most "literature" was memorized and then performed orally, repetition had a few key functions: 1) making it easier to tell a part of the story (an audience probably wouldn't listen to the whole thing in one go); 2) making it easier to memorize (while also allowing the performer/bard some time to "autopilot" and remember what comes next); 3) making the meter fit (this is why you'll see the same epithets over and over).

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#72

Post by fidesomnes »

soco wrote: post #17
handrous wrote: post #8

I'm not an expert but I've probably read a whole lot more Near East literature than, considered over a population of billions, nearly everyone. In English translation, but still. A half dozen volumes, I think, cover to cover? Maybe seven? Gilgamesh is the only work out of all of that, that I'd recommend to pretty much anyone who likes literature. Egypt has a couple promising, if relatively late, tales, but both are o…

It depends a lot on the translation I suppose, because my experience with the old testament was rather unpleasant - reading it in centuries-old language brought me no joy at all.

on the contrary reading it in Latin actually make it an enjoyable read, the English is downright dreadful.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#75

Post by violiner »

adrian_b wrote: post #55
violiner wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you using to study Akkadian?

For a beginner, I would recommend "Complete Babylonian" (Teach Yourself) by Martin Worthington. It is very accessible. After having some basic knowledge, there are more complete grammars and dictionaries. The reason for learning an ancient language is reading the original texts. There is no need to become an expert, because there are bilingual editions for most ancient texts. In my experience, no matter how good the…

Thank you for the recommendations. That's very helpful. I'm less bullish on bilingual editions (I know Ancient Greek well, and Latin a little less well, so I'm not totally uninformed) but I'm unlikely to ever be as proficient at Akkadian as I am at the languages I studied in college so I'm glad to know those exist.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#76

Post by violiner »

retrac wrote: post #25
violiner wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you using to study Akkadian?

John Huehnergard's A Grammar of Akkadian: https://brill.com/view/title/38184 seems to be well-respected. It's a grammar textbook that goes through the usual topics (nouns, verbs, etc.) Teaches the dialect of the Old Babylonian Empire and should be approachable for someone who has studied another language before. A History of the Akkadian Language: https://brill.com/view/title/21744 was just published. It's monumental…

Thank you for the recommendations.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#77

Post by throwaway946513 »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #68
dotancohen wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> my very religious teacher said the flood story in Gilgamesh added to the validity > of the Bible since it is another historical account of a large flood. You very religious teacher was not alone. At the time when Gilgamesh was first translated, this was the prevailing thought.

It still provides limited credibility to the idea that the Bible can be used as a historic document. Their teacher seemed to be using it to say the Bible is literally true, which is a ridiculous argument as Gilgamesh has examples of people unrelated to Noah surviving.

Rather than as a specific historical 'religious' document for evidence, I've seen using it as a guide to search for evidence of other potential events.

One potential explanation for these similar great flood stories have made me think of the Black Sea narrative that it may have flooded within the last 10k years, causing the rise of these stories.

It may not be true, as it could also be formulated a a flood story to explain the flooding of rivers for farming, and that one time there was a 'great flood' that initialized it for "us".

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#78

Post by InitialLastName »

lalos wrote: post #37
AlwaysRock wrote: post #19

I had a class in college that focused in large part on Gilgamesh. It was one of the few classes I enjoyed in college. I loved that my very religious teacher said the flood story in Gilgamesh added to the validity of the Bible since it is another historical account of a large flood. I thought it did the opposite and showed that the Bible is just another book of myths with some historical events peppered in, like Gilga…

Or maybe the Bible and Gilgamesh comes from the need to pass on important lessons and facts to the next chunk of humans i.e. this is why it's important to learn how to make boats, sometimes climate changes and you need a backup plan, don't eat pork because God says so -- and also because if not properly cooked you'll get trichinosis (they didn't know this but throwing a label of pork = evil is good enough). If you re…

A large portion of the Pentateuch boils down to:

> Some people came to the chief with a conflict. He went into a special tent, "communed with the storm-god", and came out with some new rules for how to manage a tribe of herders that has grown beyond Dunbar's number.

Repeat that, mix in an origin story, some king lists, and tribal-unification propaganda and (modulo some path dependency) you'll have a book that people will be treating as the literal truth 2500 years later.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#79

Post by winnit »

emodendroket wrote: post #15
handrous wrote: post #8

I'm not an expert but I've probably read a whole lot more Near East literature than, considered over a population of billions, nearly everyone. In English translation, but still. A half dozen volumes, I think, cover to cover? Maybe seven? Gilgamesh is the only work out of all of that, that I'd recommend to pretty much anyone who likes literature. Egypt has a couple promising, if relatively late, tales, but both are o…

The Ramayana sounded like fun though it's hard to figure out which version you're supposed to read.

As English versions go, I found Ralph Griffith's translation enchanting; his feeling for rhythm is wonderful.

Re: How to Read “Gilgamesh” (2019)

#80

Post by InitialLastName »

throwaway946513 wrote: post #77
boomboomsubban wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still provides limited credibility to the idea that the Bible can be used as a historic document. Their teacher seemed to be using it to say the Bible is literally true, which is a ridiculous argument as Gilgamesh has examples of people unrelated to Noah surviving.

Rather than as a specific historical 'religious' document for evidence, I've seen using it as a guide to search for evidence of other potential events. One potential explanation for these similar great flood stories have made me think of the Black Sea narrative that it may have flooded within the last 10k years, causing the rise of these stories. It may not be true, as it could also be formulated a a flood story to e…

I've also seen arguments (unsourcable at the moment) that the Tigris and Euphrates used to drain separately, and that the adjustment when they merged could have come at approximately the same point in pre-history. Given the proximity to the origin points of both stories, (and seen from within their flood plains where people were already living) that would have looked like a huge flood, after which the local geography would have looked very different.
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