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Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

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Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#131

Post by GhettoComputers »

UseStrict wrote: post #107
mlindner wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This weird OCD obsession with wanting to be able to piece apart a device just like it's a car is just strange. The device is a complete package. You don't re-solder and reflash busted chips on a motherboard do you? So why do you want to be able to replace the higher level parts rather than the whole device? This isn't like a desktop where all the parts are bought from different manufacturers and assembled by an OEM o…

But why does it have to be that way? They ship off-the-shelf RAM and SSDs in the Framework fully or partially assembled kits. They released CAD files and drawings for their module system. They actually sell replacement parts for other components, much like an OEM automaker does. If my touchpad dies I'd rather be able to swap it out with a new $100 part than buy a whole new $1500 laptop. It's a new company and have no…

The thinkpad trackpads are $15 new. If you want to get repairable laptops just get business laptops.

Don’t be fooled by the marketing, many Dell, HP and Lenovo laptops have those benefits on top of a huge aftermarket which framework doesn’t have and can’t leverage. You can way cheaper buy a broken laptop of the same model and fix yours with it whereas framework will only have their niche market which won’t be cheaper.

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#132

Post by Dylan16807 »

nyxaiur wrote: post #75
aluminussoma wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect they began soldering it because the cable connecting the disk drive had a lot of problems in older MacBooks. Soldering may have been an easy fix for that. I hate the soldering, too. I'm just offering an explanation that may make some sense given the context.

pcie and nvme ssds use ports that are similar to ram slots there is no more cable involved.

And 2.5 inch drives can and often do have ports directly mounted on the laptop motherboard. If you don't want to use a cable, then you simply don't use a cable. Nothing else changes.

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#133

Post by throwaway946513 »

GhettoComputers wrote: post #108
canadaduane wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your point, but I think it slightly misses the potential and (I believe) intent of Framework: they have opened their design specs and encouraged even DIY participants, making it possible for a cultural movement of innovation & right-to-repair to exist. It reminds me of revered machines like the Commodore 64 that didn't just create hardware (although they did that very well)--they enabled social clubs, th…

Opening them doesn’t mean it’ll be taken up. Everyone had a commandore so there was enthusiasm for it. This is another generic very niche laptop that has no defining benefits over others and so will find it hard to convince anyone to make some niche parts that doesn’t have a large install base.

"Very niche laptop" It's largely a laptop aimed at being a general computer, just like a Dell or HP.

With two exceptions: - Freedom of choice over operating system - Freedom of choice over repair components

From the looks of it, there doesn't appear to be much of a detriment to it over other laptops.

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#134

Post by kitsunesoba »

ghaff wrote: post #42
323 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the drive encrypted anyway, with the key in T2?

Yes. The only real solution is to backup regularly. (And, if you travel, it probably makes sense to regularly copy any critical work in process to an SD card.)

Not backing up regularly is eventual (potentially massive) data loss even with a machine that doesn't have the limitations mentioned in the linked page. It may not be as common but SSD controllers for example can and do fail sometimes, and in that situation no amount of flexibility on the host computer's part is going to save you.

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#135

Post by [deleted] »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #115
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>whatever failure damaged the SSD is statistically likely to compromise the reliability of the rest of the board Sorry, but how? That's just reads like BS. SSDs have limited lifespans due to the limited write cycles of the NAND chips. So no, what damages NAND does not damage the rest of the board. The more you write and swap to flash, the faster it wears out, taking your Macbook down with it when it dies. Granted, I…

How many SSDs have you worn out? I've never managed it.

[deleted]

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#136

Post by aluminussoma »

adolph wrote: post #79
aluminussoma wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect they began soldering it because the cable connecting the disk drive had a lot of problems in older MacBooks. Soldering may have been an easy fix for that. I hate the soldering, too. I'm just offering an explanation that may make some sense given the context.

What cable? As far as I can recall, everything not directly soldered since about 2013 was ssd mounted to motherboard using either M.2 or a similar proprietary connector. I suspect it was Cook-ish financial engineering and that trademark Apple hubris (that they finally got over to re-add ports in the most recent MBP).

Here's an older thread on the cable: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7794520

This was pre-2013. So perhaps the proprietary connector was a reaction to the cable?

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#137

Post by slaymaker1907 »

phkahler wrote: post #128
wtallis wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice, exhausting NAND write endurance is usually not what causes SSDs to fail in the field. It is especially unlikely to be the underlying cause of unexpected and seemingly premature catastrophic SSD failure. Also, it is not possible for an SSD to decrease your usable storage space over time. That would break any partition table format or filesystem that expects an ordinary block device. It also wouldn't win y…

>> It also wouldn't win you any significant increase unusable lifespan, because when your drive starts retiring large numbers of blocks, all of your blocks are on the verge of failure. That's not true. Blocks degrade when written to. Most files are written once and read many times.

You're forgetting that SSDs use virtual addressing so writes are distributed relatively equally over the whole drive. Even data that is written once and never changed logically will probably move around on the SSD due to garbage collection. The virtualization algorithms are kept relatively secret, but I assume good SSDs will move full unchanged blocks around occasionally to distribute write load more equally on the physical blocks.

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#138

Post by kitsunesoba »

SamuelAdams wrote: post #30
rvz wrote: post #18

Unsurprising. Given the countless times I have warned about the risks of going 'all in' on an Apple Silicon Mac and now they realise. Good luck with your files if the internal hard drive is dead. Consider creating regular backups otherwise your can say goodbye to your files. No thanks and absolutely no deal to that.

How is this any different than any other computer? If a hard drive fails, recovering data is either impossible or very expensive. Everyone who uses a computer ought to have some sort of backup, either another drive, cloud service, etc.

Yes, if you have anything of even moderate importance on a computer, not backing up is foolish and will eventually result in loss of data. If plugging in an external drive and letting something like Time Machine or Carbon Copy Cloner run from time to time is too much trouble there's even options like Backblaze which makes automated incremental backups entirely transparent and effortless. There's no good reason to not backup.

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#139

Post by lamontcg »

liminalsunset wrote: post #26

General grumpiness about this particular design decision aside, it appears that since the T2 Macs, the main SSD was being used to store core system firmware. On T2 I think it's BridgeOS that sends the EFI image to the Intel side to boot it, and it does the firmware verification and loading. This setup has a benefit; namely, it is now impossible to brick the system with a bad BIOS/EFI flash, and you'll never need to u…

> The SSD is reasonably considered to last the "lifetime" of the product

Except for simply running of out drive space.

So if you want to buy something and have it last 5+ years you need to spec it out from the start to have way more drive space than you think you'll ever use.

Or else when it runs out and you really need that extra space you're forced to upgrade everything in order to get the extra space since you made an initial mistake in specing out the machine when you first bought it.

(I also strongly question the idea that un-removability provides much better lifetime over simply removing the spinning parts. That seems of questionable benefit to the end user, while taking upgradability away creates planned obsolescence that increases someone's financial metrics at apple and takes away consumer freedom).

Re: Apple Silicon Macs can't boot from external drive if internal drive failed

#140

Post by GhettoComputers »

throwaway946513 wrote: post #126
GhettoComputers wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, nobody wants it. You can try to sell it though. People don’t want even a free processor that needs an expensive mobo they’ll need to buy our own when they can get a much better ryzen board and a cheap processor that will trounce it. Nobody wants these old processors, many are so useless they’re being drilled for keychains.

While I certainly can't speak for everyone - I've had a 2011 Dell Inspiron that I upgraded from the i5-2450m to an i7-2670qm a couple years ago. Additionally the RAM and HDD were upgraded/swapped for SSDs. The computer now lives with my mom, who needs a simple but reliable device. The i5 was sold on ebay for a few bucks to some lad or lasse who may have needed it for a cheap laptop build. Decade old computers aren't…

I agree, performance hasn’t changed much. But they’re relying on old motherboards which are way more fragile.

How often does your mother use that computer? Did the performance matter to her at all? Even if you swapped it back to the old i5 with the SSD I doubt much of a difference would be noticed.

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