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Physics Student Earns PhD at Age 89

brown.edu

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Re: Physics Student Earns PhD at Age 89

#231

Post by liveoneggs »

tombert wrote: post #3

This is really cool. I'm 30 right now, and only just recently finished my bachelors and have been looking to get a PhD, but it's really hard to find a program that will let you work full time while doing it. It doesn't help that a part of me does sort of feel "too old" to do this sometimes. The PhD system in the US is really tailored around the assumption that you haven't entered the corporate world yet. Anyway, it's…

this is because PhD students are expected to be indentured servants to the tenured professors for, at least, five years

Re: Physics Student Earns PhD at Age 89

#232

Post by bumby »

bachmeier wrote: post #214
ildon wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU Professor here. You're right, expectations are very different in the "old continent". Things very quite significantly from country to country, but generally speaking in most EU you can do your PhD while working. Retrospectively, knowing what I know know, I should add that if I were to start a PhD now I wouldn't trust a university that asks for a full time commitment, no exceptions. I would be very suspicious that…

> I would be very suspicious that they will burden me with all kind of side activities (e.g. tutoring undergraduate students, handling bureaucracy, paper work, etc.) that are not really of any actual help towards the thesis. What you're calling a "burden" is the stuff that (a) pays for the funding that covers tuition and living expenses and (b) provides experience that helps you to get a job when you're done. You don…

In my experience, some universities/programs still expect these ancillary duties even if you're self-funded. If I was a cynic, it would lead me to believe they are just trying to get cheap labor out of grad students.

Re: Physics Student Earns PhD at Age 89

#233

Post by bumby »

ghego1 wrote: post #169
dunefox wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would be very suspicious that they will burden me with all kind of side activities (e.g. tutoring undergraduate students, handling bureaucracy, paper work, etc.) that are not really of any actual help towards the thesis. So, every PhD position? I have looked at dozens and almost none don't require teaching, paper work, bureaucracy, organisational work, etc. done. I was even warned by one person that this weekend…

I'm sorry the hear that, and I think it's mostly worng. I should add though that some activities are indeed useful, one of those is certainly teaching. If PhD students have full responsibility over the course, or part of the course, of which they're entrusted, it can be a very productive activity. It is particularly formative if PhD students are entrusted with teaching activities covering subjects closely related to…

>Apart of few exceptions, professors need PhD students more than PhD students need professors.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not disagreeing, but colleges/professors certainly like to project the opposite in many cases

Re: Physics Student Earns PhD at Age 89

#234

Post by [deleted] »

tombert wrote: post #25
azhenley wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professor here. You definitely aren’t too old, but I would never take on a PhD student that wants to continue working elsewhere. A PhD is a full-time job. It took me 6.5 years and was hard enough with very little outside distractions.

> You definitely aren’t too old By "old" I didn't mean actual biological age exactly. I guess the more appropriate word would be something more like "settled". As it stands, I have a mortgage and whatnot to take care of, it's not really realistic for me to quit my job and focus full-time on a PhD for the next 5-6 years. > but I would never take on a PhD student that wants to continue working elsewhere That seems to b…

[deleted]

Re: Physics Student Earns PhD at Age 89

#235

Post by tombert »

conjectures wrote: post #180
ildon wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU Professor here. You're right, expectations are very different in the "old continent". Things very quite significantly from country to country, but generally speaking in most EU you can do your PhD while working. Retrospectively, knowing what I know know, I should add that if I were to start a PhD now I wouldn't trust a university that asks for a full time commitment, no exceptions. I would be very suspicious that…

> in most EU you can do your PhD while working. You really can't at good universities in the UK. At Cambridge we had to get special permission to live more than 10 miles from Great St Mary's. My advisor's advice was that it was near impossible to finish up while working. Had enough of Americans telling me about their excruciatingly long PhD programmes when half of that time is spent teaching and doing exams which we'…

A few decent universities in the UK appear to be somewhat amenable to the idea of part-time distance learning for a PhD. I don't think University of York is considered a bad school by any measure, and it has a program for such things.

https://www.york.ac.uk/distance-learning/courses/#computer-s...

Re: Physics Student Earns PhD at Age 89

#236

Post by the_only_law »

odyssey7 wrote: post #43
silisili wrote: post #9

This gives me hope. I'm not even half his age, but already worry about my brain going. When I was 17 I could do basic calculus in my head. Today I struggle to carry numbers in long addition problems. It already has me thinking about my career and future - it certainly is downhill from here. Then something like this happens and just makes me feel like a big baby. Hats off Mr Steiner.

Don’t assume this is age. It could be a health condition beginning to manifest. Inflammation, vitamin deficiency leading to something bad, etc. Brain fog is a common symptom of many possible issues that may just be taking root. I would see a doctor and make sure I fixed any such issue I could.

My worry is that is a more permanent health change due to bad habits.

Re: Physics Student Earns PhD at Age 89

#237

Post by tombert »

vaylian wrote: post #184
CalRobert wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should someone give up several years of income for a PhD?

Because money isn't everything. Indulging in an intellectual pursuit in an environment that fosters investigative minds can be a wonderful thing.

> Because money isn't everything.

I agree, and neither is a PhD, but I don't think that's a great reason.

"Why don't we pay teachers a decent wage? Because money isn't everything and helping students grow to the next generation is something that is inspiring in itself."

It's easy to say "money isn't everything" when you don't have to worry about money. A single parent is unlikely to be able to quit a decent-paying job to work with the low wages of a PhD program; are we just going to say "single parents need not apply" or "your kid should learn that money isn't everything while you live on subsistence wages for the next six years"?

Obviously there are single parents who manage to their PhDs, and that's really cool, but I don't think it's realistic for a lot of (otherwise qualified) people.

Re: Physics Student Earns PhD at Age 89

#238

Post by pm90 »

bachmeier wrote: post #214
ildon wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU Professor here. You're right, expectations are very different in the "old continent". Things very quite significantly from country to country, but generally speaking in most EU you can do your PhD while working. Retrospectively, knowing what I know know, I should add that if I were to start a PhD now I wouldn't trust a university that asks for a full time commitment, no exceptions. I would be very suspicious that…

> I would be very suspicious that they will burden me with all kind of side activities (e.g. tutoring undergraduate students, handling bureaucracy, paper work, etc.) that are not really of any actual help towards the thesis. What you're calling a "burden" is the stuff that (a) pays for the funding that covers tuition and living expenses and (b) provides experience that helps you to get a job when you're done. You don…

Both of your examples are duties that an academic may have in the future. What about someone like the OP that just wants the PhD and continue their path in the industry?

Speaking anecdotally: the US research universities seem like research mills driven by low wage labor from international students. American students I met in my graduate program had to be both really smart or passionate and willing to put up with the demands of the PhD. It’s pretty bleak, and it’s good to hear that it’s different on the old continent.

Re: Physics Student Earns PhD at Age 89

#239

Post by chuckleMuscle »

jstx1 wrote: post #183
evanb wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

… if you already have a master’s degree, which takes 2 years. In the US many 5-6 year PhD programs do not require—and in fact include—a master’s degree.

This isn't the case in England. Most master's degrees are 1 year and a master's isn't a requirement for many PhD programmes. So it's possible to do your entire higher education, including a PhD, in 6 years (3 years of undergrad + 3 years full-time PhD).

This is true in principle, but in practice my experience is you have to have an extraordinarily good CV to get funding without a masters degree. Natural science bias in my friendship group though.

That said, a masters degree in the UK is much less of an undertaking than many other countries. Level of independent research in my "combined" masters (4 yr course, usually taken as 1st degree), pales in comparison to what colleagues in mainland Europe had to do.

Re: Physics Student Earns PhD at Age 89

#240

Post by gspr »

tough wrote: post #213
gspr wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh. I agree that the exploitative behavior of some big name universities is horrible, but I don't at all understand how you from this conclude that "academia is over", and in turn from that that people should avoid doing PhD. Your comment is 10/10 HN.

Thanks. I do spend a lot of time here so... And you're right, I made three totally disconnected points albeit on the same area at least! Have done much worst in the past. I am sorry if I offended you or didn't explain myself much further. Why is academia over in my opinion you ask? Well, for one it's an overly saturated space, most of the folks doing a PhD go on to have very good career prospect's (of course thanks t…

> But which percentage do stay in academia? Why not everyone with good ideas? It seems to me, it's a system like any other rigged for the rich and connected, who can afford a degree+master+phd, I guess if your parents are supporting you through it...

There are several places where you can get a bachelor's and a master's for no tuition and with government support. Source: I did.

And there are several places where you can get paid decently to do a PhD. Less than an industry job, for sure, but definitely enough to get by just fine. Source: I did.

> About avoiding doing a PhD, you can just read from all the people who was paid poorly,

A PhD is not a set of courses to read. It's research training. It's doing research.

> but since they needed the credentials, they went with it anyway's

Where I live, nobody in their right minds would do a PhD for the credentials.

> I guess I would change my prior absolute statement to a more specific one, do a PhD only if you can afford the opportunity cost of not doing it and doing else more productive (for yourself or bank account at least)

Sure. I'd very much agree that a PhD often represents a lost opportunity cost, but that's something very different from the bleak picture that you paint (wherein only the rich and connected can do one without ending up in debt).

> And maybe academia is not over, but it's certainly in need of a shake up

OK, so, in summary: Academia isn't over, and PhDs aren't pointless. Literally nothing remains from your first comment.

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