Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#301

Post by nuerow » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #134

s7r wrote: post #121

In terms of "antithetical values", the machine learning project ml5js.org actually did something about this. They bound their open-source license to a Code of Conduct¹, which forbids the use of their ML software for (1) discriminating against marginalized communities, (2) building tools that disingenuously manipulate public opinion, (3) building tools of mass surveillance and prediction to repress the rights of peopl…

If all software was licensed that way, 5-15 years would pass then suddenly there'd be a whole bunch of "Wow, Stallman was right again! We should have been using free software licenses!" style articles. Restricting software use to only people approved by the creators is a terrible idea. Society has to operate with some level of trust that even people we disagree with, using methods we don't approve of, have the potent…

> Restricting software use to only people approved by the creators is a terrible idea.

Isn't that the whole point of author's rights/intellectual property in general and software licenses in particular?

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#302

Post by Robin_Message » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

fvdessen wrote: post #241

s7r wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Restricting software use to only people approved by the creators is a terrible idea. Everyone is free to use the software. If a project is found to be in violation of the Code of Conduct (e.g. discriminating against marginalized communities, manipulating public opinion, automating weapons) than the community developing the software takes steps to remedy the problem with the reported violator, or the project falls o…

> Everyone is free to use the software. [...] The rest of your reply disagrees with your first sentence. It seems that only the people who share ml5.js values are allowed to use the software. There's no problem with that, but they should be clear about it. They should also state clearly that ml5.js is not free or open source software, as its license violates the first principle of Free Software: > The freedom to run…

> The rest of your reply disagrees with your first sentence. It seems that only the people who share ml5.js values are allowed to use the software.

Any can use the software only for purposes in line with ml5.js values.

So everyone is free to use the software, just not for all the purposes that any particular person might choose. It's something like a bar with a "no racist language" sign: anyone can use the bar, they just have to abide by the rules, and if they chose not to, they can find another bar.

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#303

Post by jrootabega » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

serial_dev wrote: post #225

jrootabega wrote: post #30

> As far as personal feelings are concerned, of course we would prefer if people so antithetical to our values did not use and benefit from our labour And sensible people would prefer that license violations would be published and pursued fairly, and personal feelings kept personal, rather than creating a soft list of people and perspectives whose online/computing freedom is less important than others.

But isn't it exactly what they say? Like "hey, I wish they didn't use Mastodon, but there's a license and they can use our software if they want to and they comply with the license"? Or did I misunderstand this? Their only issue in the article is that they don't comply with the license. I believe the "personal feelings" paragraph was added so that they explain to some people that they don't want to/cannot prevent the…

I could understand that interpretation. I just don't believe it's true. I think the best thing to say, if anything was necessary to say, would have been "This action is meant to defend the license, and does not constitute a judgment of the user that is violating the license."

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#304

Post by kypro » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #185

Mastodon has also banned Gab and others from the network that they disagree with. The whole point of a federated system is free speech... yet they have spent a lot of time trying to kick out people who disagree with them. Frankly, it’s disheartening I want to know what the communists, fascists, republicans, democrats, racists, religious, technocrats, etc want to say. It’s so frustrating having everyone in bubbles and…

It really never ceases to amaze me how few people actually seem to value freedom of speech. Almost everyone claims to until someone says something they disagree with.

I guess I'm not sure the problem is technological any more. If public sentiment towards freedom of speech doesn't change it doesn't really matter if a truly free platform exists or not. If 99% of people don't want freedom of speech then these platforms will inevitably become radicalised cesspools only used by the 1% who have opinions which they can't express elsewhere. Subsequently if these platforms become popular enough they'll inevitably be censored in one way or another by the 99% who disapprove.

I'm with you, I like to know what the radicals are saying. I actually find a lot of the mainstream arguments against radical belief systems to be very poor and this actually re-enforces the beliefs these communities hold. I personally believe if we tried to understand some of the grievances these people have and then tried to actually provide solutions to their problems we wouldn't see half as much radicalisation. Instead we try to silence and shame these individuals then dismiss their grievances with stupid arguments which only demonstrate to them that we have no understanding or interest in their problems. It's really no surprise that radical online communities seem to be growing with censorship. No one changes their beliefs because someone censors and shames them.

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#305

Post by roenxi » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

jlangenauer wrote: post #152

roenxi wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all software was licensed that way, 5-15 years would pass then suddenly there'd be a whole bunch of "Wow, Stallman was right again! We should have been using free software licenses!" style articles. Restricting software use to only people approved by the creators is a terrible idea. Society has to operate with some level of trust that even people we disagree with, using methods we don't approve of, have the potent…

Why? The creators created the software, they can put any conditions they please on how others might use it. They're under no moral or legal obligation to allow people to use the fruits of their labors, except as they permit.

Tolerance, right up to the limit where it actually starts hurting, is the best strategy for a peaceful and prosperous society. Trying to carve out little patches for your type of people and excluding that scary, evil other does not work. We're at Enlightenment+200 years here. I suppose shouldn't have to try make a defence of tolerating different opinions. If they want to license their software however then good luck to them, but nonetheless attempting to encode illiberal political beliefs into a software license is the wrong direction. The GPL is exactly the right approach. Freedom consistently outperforms all the ideas people swear are going to work better than freedom.

Marginalised communities are not protected by documents that claim to protect marginalised communities. Fat lot of good documents have ever done. What protects marginalised communities is actual tolerance of differing opinions, and actual freedom. Ditto what protects us from surveillance. Fat lot of good all the paper protections against surveillance have done. Look at what America has built! Let alone China. Once again, the problem is a knee-jerk overreaction and paranoia in the ruling class when the correct answer is tolerance. Ditto weapons. Did Afghanistan benefit from code of conducts? No, what it needed was a bulkwork of people who said "lets really stretch ourselves not to hurt people who dislike us" at a critical moment.

This license won't do what it claims. Best case, it is GPL+Fluff. Worst case, it becomes an exclusionary political tool. Ironically, it is likely that it will be wielded against marginalised communities.

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#306

Post by gambiting » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

foxhop wrote: post #252

gambiting wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bittorent is a protocol, that's like asking how do you stop the English language or poetry or musical notation - it doesn't even make sense in context. You can absolutely stop individual people participating in the network however and stop them from hosting or make it difficult for them. Just like with bittorent, it can be more or less difficult depending on the infringement, but again, if the software you host is br…

Do you have a license of your own you are so ready to protect that you would toss out the baby with the bath water?

Let me flip this around - do you believe that things like licences, copyright, perhaps even legality of material posted shouldn't matter at all on this "permacomputer"? Reading your page it's clear you want to go back to the "good old days" of internet - which is admirable, in a sort of romantic way. It is hacker news after all. But yes, if I made some software, and I found you were using it without a licence, I'd definitely try to sue you for it, permacomputer or not. Just because your network might have the technical resilience against being shut down doesn't mean you get to go back to golden days of the internet where no one really cared about silly things like actually paying for stuff. I see the attempt to dress it as "prevent deplatforming of politicians" just as dishonest as the attempts to shut everything down because "think of the children" - they are two sides of the same extremist(in opinion) coin. You can't have a completely open internet(yes, like we used to have, that's gone), but you shouldn't have a completely closed surveiled internet either.

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#307

Post by Smithalicious » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

Okay, fair enough, I expected worse from the title. The "antithetical to our values" thing is silly political posturing, but the case itself seems like a pretty clear cut AGPL violation. Hope it gets worked out alright, and that across the aisle we can all agree to respect free software licenses.

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#308

Post by macinjosh » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #48

roenxi wrote: post #21

One of Trump's biggest advantages is his enemies drastically over-react to things and end up looking stupid. GPL violations are a serious business and Mastodon is well within their rights to ask for the code to be released. But the business hasn't even opened yet and they're already waving permanent revocation around. This sort of aggression in enforcing the GPL may actually be unprecedented.

Yeah I remember all those lectures about over reaction and we ended up with an insurrection and an entire half of our country convinced an election was stolen.

That is extremely hypocritical as the never-Trumpers claimed for 4 years Trump was an illegitimate President and continue to do so even after a multi-year investigation failed to prove any claim to that effect was true.

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#309

Post by timwaagh » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

s7r wrote: post #121

In terms of "antithetical values", the machine learning project ml5js.org actually did something about this. They bound their open-source license to a Code of Conduct¹, which forbids the use of their ML software for (1) discriminating against marginalized communities, (2) building tools that disingenuously manipulate public opinion, (3) building tools of mass surveillance and prediction to repress the rights of peopl…

Isn't that software closed in all but name. I mean since they determine themselves whether anything violates the code of conduct they can basically ban usage of the software retroactively. If I use it to make a gazillion dollars through selling stuffed animals they would claim it violates code of conduct and I could get back into compliance by paying the committee the gazillion dollars and I'd have no recourse even though to an outside observer selling stuffed animals doesn't do any of the things banned by the code of conduct.

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#310

Post by kkjjkgjjgg » Tue, Nov 02, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

martimarkov wrote: post #40

roenxi wrote: post #21

One of Trump's biggest advantages is his enemies drastically over-react to things and end up looking stupid. GPL violations are a serious business and Mastodon is well within their rights to ask for the code to be released. But the business hasn't even opened yet and they're already waving permanent revocation around. This sort of aggression in enforcing the GPL may actually be unprecedented.

But it is correct. I would love for all violations to be policed like this. I didn’t take time away from my family and life for someone else to profit. I did it ONLY because I’d knew what GPL would enforce. The business opening or not does not matter here. GPL is enforced on the moment you publish underneath that license.

What exactly are you hoping for or missing? No actual harm has been done to anybody. If "Truth Social" was online for real it would be different, but now? The beta users presumably didn't mind that they didn't have the source code.

I think the Mastodon people are merely hoping they can stop Trump, they are not really concerned about getting the source code.