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Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

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Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#191
post #134
post #121

In terms of "antithetical values", the machine learning project ml5js.org actually did something about this. They bound their open-source license to a Code of Conduct¹, which forbids the use of their ML software for (1) discriminating against marginalized communities, (2) building tools that disingenuously manipulate public opinion, (3) building tools of mass surveillance and prediction to repress the rights of peopl…

If all software was licensed that way, 5-15 years would pass then suddenly there'd be a whole bunch of "Wow, Stallman was right again! We should have been using free software licenses!" style articles. Restricting software use to only people approved by the creators is a terrible idea. Society has to operate with some level of trust that even people we disagree with, using methods we don't approve of, have the potent…

> Restricting software use to only people approved by the creators is a terrible idea.

Everyone is free to use the software. If a project is found to be in violation of the Code of Conduct (e.g. discriminating against marginalized communities, manipulating public opinion, automating weapons) than the community developing the software takes steps to remedy the problem with the reported violator, or the project falls out of compliance with the license.

I agree with your hesitance and apprehension of how it could could go wrong. There is significant responsibility in interpretation and governance, presumably (though in some cases, it could be pretty clear — like with weapons.). And in cases with consequences related to violence and weapons and oppression, it also seems like a step in the right direction.

In the context of some software, this may not fit or be useful. In other libraries, it could also be incredibly important and impactful.

It also requires stepping out of our innocence. It requires accepting responsibility for interpretation, decision-making, and governance — and that sometimes, some of our decisions may not be right. Sometimes, we have to make decisions even when the answers aren't clear. This is part of our personal lives, being in families, being in communities, being in companies. It's just decision-making at the end of the day — call it what you want (e.g. governance, licensing, restricting). Why shouldn't that kind of decisionmaking and responsibility be part of software and the communities building software — especially given its growing impact on the world around us?

> Society has to operate with some level of trust that even people we disagree with

This is well said. I would just note that ml5.js's approach leaves room for disagreement, and a pathway to hear and understand and reconcile disagreement, before any action is taken. The devil is in implementation — though it does seem wise, and the community has likely thought through and accounted for more of the problems than we have. They probably had discussions just like this, actually, with perspectives just like ours.

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In what world does using software to marginalize people or mislead the public create a better world? The road to hell ... something something ... good intentions. Who defines what 'marginalization of people' means (a strange term if you really think about it), and why would you think they would get that definition right?

> Who defines what 'marginalization of people' means The software creators, which seems very reasonable to me. This isn't some arbitrary judge deeming what is marginalizing or not. This is the creators of the software saying "We don't want to build something that complete dickweeds can use for evil." Don't like their definition of "dickweeds" or "evil"? Fine, build your own shit then.

If you are writing a license, which is a legal document, then its meaning is determined not by you but by "some arbitrary judge", because you are not the only party bound by this license. If some other developer starts using your product based on the license that you published it under, then you don't have the right to change the license terms retroactively. Best you can do is change the license for the future releases.

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#193
post #159
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all software was licensed that way, 5-15 years would pass then suddenly there'd be a whole bunch of "Wow, Stallman was right again! We should have been using free software licenses!" style articles. Restricting software use to only people approved by the creators is a terrible idea. Society has to operate with some level of trust that even people we disagree with, using methods we don't approve of, have the potent…

Not just Stallman, it's incompatible with the OSI definition of open source.

> incompatible with the OSI definition of open source

So what? Why does it matter what they think?

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#194
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't a semi-malicious actor be mostly in the clear if they provided the upstream code and a statement declaring they make no modifications to the provided source directly? If so, what would the recourse be? I can't imagine a court backing a demand to reveal 's production systems based on what little external evidence one would have in these circumstances.

> Wouldn't a semi-malicious actor be mostly in the clear if they provided the upstream code and a statement declaring they make no modifications to the provided source directly? Sure, but that seems to be belied on its face by them having actually stripped the present-by-default mentions & links: > neither the terms nor any other part of the website contained any references to Mastodon, nor any links to the source co…

And if not enough for an injunction, certainly enough for an “information and belief” claim in a lawsuit, which would likely survive a motion to dismiss and get you to discovery.

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#195
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? In what world does using software to marginalize people or mislead the public create a better world?

See, this is where the creators of the CoC made a mistake, either of malice or ignorance. >(Do Not)Use ml5.js to build tools that discriminate against marginalized communities That could be better put as >(Do Not)Use ml5.js to build tools that discriminate By adding in "marginalized communities", they are creating loopholes. Some discrimination is good, as long as it is to people we don't like. Is discrimination agai…

That’s working as intended. They don’t want to prevent discrimination, they want to stop discrimination against groups they like.

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#196
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all software was licensed that way, 5-15 years would pass then suddenly there'd be a whole bunch of "Wow, Stallman was right again! We should have been using free software licenses!" style articles. Restricting software use to only people approved by the creators is a terrible idea. Society has to operate with some level of trust that even people we disagree with, using methods we don't approve of, have the potent…

Why? The creators created the software, they can put any conditions they please on how others might use it. They're under no moral or legal obligation to allow people to use the fruits of their labors, except as they permit.

> they can put any conditions they please on how others might use it

Isn't it "how they sell it" instead of "how they use it"?

Edit: Also, "how" doesn't necessarily mean "what for".

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In what world does using software to marginalize people or mislead the public create a better world? The road to hell ... something something ... good intentions. Who defines what 'marginalization of people' means (a strange term if you really think about it), and why would you think they would get that definition right?

> Who defines what 'marginalization of people' means The software creators, which seems very reasonable to me. This isn't some arbitrary judge deeming what is marginalizing or not. This is the creators of the software saying "We don't want to build something that complete dickweeds can use for evil." Don't like their definition of "dickweeds" or "evil"? Fine, build your own shit then.

For one piece of software, maybe. Now imagine what happens when a lot of open source software does the same thing. It would become impossible to use open source software of that kind because there is no way that you will be able to satisfy many different groups of people each with their own points of view on what is moral or not, at the same time.

On top of that, even if all the groups shared the same views you’d still need to suddenly spend a lot of time understanding each group before you used their software, and you’d need to continue to keep an eye on their views to ensure you are complying.

Thanks but I will stick to the plain old open source licenses like ISC, MIT, GPL, and Apache.

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#198
post #121

In terms of "antithetical values", the machine learning project ml5js.org actually did something about this. They bound their open-source license to a Code of Conduct¹, which forbids the use of their ML software for (1) discriminating against marginalized communities, (2) building tools that disingenuously manipulate public opinion, (3) building tools of mass surveillance and prediction to repress the rights of peopl…

I wonder just how far people are willing to take their wokeism. So far neither the Pentagon nor CIA has had any problems recruiting scientists and software developers.

With idealism I've discovered that words are rarely followed by action.

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#199
post #62

Antithetical to your values why, because it’s supposedly going to be a free speech website (I’ll believe it when I see it), as opposed to the tightly moderated fediverse instances? Or is it just the guy? Or something else? Anyway, it hasn’t launched yet, so why can’t this post wait until then?

so far most (all?) attempts to create a “conservative” social network end up as sites with large nazi userbases

either way, some people are already using the site and the license should apply - the source needs to be available to all of them

Re: Trump’s new social media platform found using Mastodon code

#200
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a personal feeling.

I think this is a tu quoque fallacy. In my view, it is OK to invoke personal feelings about whether personal feelings should be invoked in relation to the enforcement of a software license.

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