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Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Land Registry is the final arbitor of who owns what in England and Wales. So yes, right now the Registry says this New Owner owns this property, there is no way to contest this in a court of law, the official Land Registry paperwork is de jure supreme, it has the same legal effect as if an Officer from the Registry was in Court to say yup, that's who owns this property says the Crown. But, of course what we've go…

Strange that the Land Registry decides on an issue that is basically a matter of contract law: The buyer entered into a fraudulent contract. Nonetheless, here's how the Land Registry handles matters of fraud: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rectification-and...

Wow:

  3.2 Suspected fraud or forgery

  If someone suspects that a fraud has taken place or is
  about to take place in relation to their property, they
  should contact us immediately. In many cases, we will
  be able, on application, to enter a standard form
  restriction LL in the register, that requires a
  certificate to be given by a conveyancer that they are
  satisfied that the person who executed a document
  lodged for registration as disponor is the same person
  as the proprietor.

  It will also be advisable to take legal or other
  professional advice to try to minimise any loss.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#182
post #42
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The key problem is that it is a civil matter. No. The criminal matter, as alleged, is that someone scammed the buyer, the solicitors and the Land Registry into believing that they are who they were not. That is not a civil matter, it is I believe fraud. If a bloke sells their house, but then gets cold feet, or not happy with the compensation that is a civil matter. This is not what is alleged.

Yes, it is unclear why the police told him it was civil since fraud is "misrepresentation for a gain", which the fraudulent seller presumably did. Maybe the argument is that without proof that the fraudulent seller made a gain, it is merely a Tort and not Fraud?

They're referring to the parties at the house when the police were called. By all official accounts the house had been sold and the police couldn't find anyone to arrest.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#183
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds to me like in the UK you cant truly own land if the government can just decide it belongs to someone else.

Pretty much true everywhere. It’s not like you can take anything with you when you’re dead, owning materials is really just a societal construct no matter which way you slice it.

Possession is a physical/real property of the universe.

Ownership is a legal abstraction/construct.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#185
A bit long, but here is a summary from the BBC Radio programme You and Yours which has more detail than the BBC News report:

Background

Mike Hall (owner of the property) moves around a lot due to his work. He rents out his home, but due to COVID the property has been empty for some time.

Returning to his property

When Mr Hall returned to his house he could tell clearly the house has been broken into. The front door window pane had been smashed and partially replaced, and the locks had been replaced.

Reporting to the police

Police told Mr Hall it was a civil matter and Mr Hall had to leave the house and contact his solicitors.

Mr Hall put in an online application to Bedfordshire Police Service to notify them of a crime. Every time he got an automated replying stating this was not a criminal offence but a civil matter.

He also contacted Action Fraud (UK’s national reporting centre for fraud and cybercrime, run by the City of London Police). They also said it was a civil offence and they could not help him.

Mr Hall: "So everywhere I turned, it was a closed door"

Contacting the BBC

Mr Hall contacted the BBC Radio programme You and Yours (consumer affairs programme) and they confirmed this was a criminal offence, not a civil offence. (Comment from me: speaks a lot about the police that the owner ends going to a BBC Radio programme due to inactivity and incorrect information from police sources.)

The BBC put Mr Hall in touch with the Bedford Fraud Squad who agree Mr Hall is a victim of fraud and is now investigating.

How did it happen?

The criminal contacts the solicitor and pretends to be Mr Hall. But how did the criminal convince the solicitor he was Mr Hall?

Solicitors require identity documents e.g. Passport, Driving Licence (both include owner photo). The criminal applied for and got a genuine duplicate driver licence from the DVLA (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency) in Mr Hall's name ("genuine document fraudulently obtained").

Mike Hall's driving licence is in Welsh and contains the title 'Reverend', his address, his photo and signature. The criminal's licence is in English, with the title 'Mr', a different address, signature and photo. This is the fraudulent driving licence the solicitor saw.

It gets worse...

In April 2021, the DVLA contacted Mike Hall to confirm if he had applied for a duplicate driving licence as they has a suspicion the request they had received could be fraudulent. Mike Hall confirmed to the DVLA he didn't apply for a duplicate licence. The DVLA said they would cancel the fraudulent request.

Unfortunately, they failed to cancel the duplicate licence even though they promised they would.

The criminal gets the genuine duplicate driving licence and changes the picture in the driving licence. The DVLA would not comment on how the criminal altered the driving licence details. However, they say they are taking this matter very seriously (they described what happened to Mike Hall as "awful") and are working with Bedfordshire Police.

Fraudulent bank account

In April, a new TSB bank account is fraudulently created in Mike Hall's name. In July, over two days, £131,000 is deposited into the bank account - and then withdrawn. The BBC reporter contacted TSB to ask them: why did they not flag this as suspicious activity? TSB said the activity didn't trigger any suspicions and they are working with the police on the case.

Will Mike Hall get his house back?

Reporter: "Very possibly not"

Reporter: "If your name is on the Land Register for a property, that property is yours and it doesn't matter if you bought that property from a fraudster."

"The Land Registery is the only record of property ownership we have in the UK [England and Wales]. It is state guaranteed and that means if there is fraudlent change of title, which has happened in this case, victims of fraud and mistakes can be compensated."

This type of fraud ("vendor fraud") is on the rise. Compensation has risen from £2m to £3.5m in just twelve months - a 40% rise.

The Land Registry say they rely on solicitors to make checks to spot fraudulent attempts to impersonate property owners. Empty, rental and properties with no mortgages are particularly vulnerable to this type of fraud.

And what about Mike?

The BBC showed Mike the fake driving licence used to impersonate him: "I felt sick actually - seeing someone else's face on my driving licence...I felt an emptiness in my stomach and it make it all very real to me."

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#186
I remember reading about a "sovereign citizen" outfit, doing something similar, in the US.

In that case, the "sovereign citizen" would get bounced out on their ear, but they can still make the homeowner's life a nightmare.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/sovereign-citizens-sentence...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/26/nyregion/moors-newark.htm...

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#187
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Solicitor has no existing relationship with the real owner of the house. A bloke turns up and says they want to sell their house and has the correct Land Registry details and some ID, the solicitor does other checks and makes it all happen. The illegal seller must have known that the owner was away for some time though because even if everything is ready, it usually takes at least 2 months to go through.

But surely the land registry has an existing relationship with the real owner of the land? Isn't that the entire point of the land registry, to be able to contact and deal with the person who owns a particular piece of land?

I purchased my property in 1989. Any contact detail for me in the land registry in NSW Australia would be the house where I lived and the phone number there. Neither would be valid and lead them to me specifically. I certainly have never had further contact with them or they with me. So if someone presents themselves as me with a government issued driver's licence at the property address they would be none the wiser. (You'd normally also need to present say a utility bill and a credit card to have enough points to prove identity)

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#188
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I second that. If I'd end up losing my house to something like this... Let's just say nobody would get it by the end of it.

If you're implying what I think you're implying it would probably end with you in prison.

Losing the singular most expensive item you own, that typically contains the rest of your property, with no warning… that tends to end with you on the street which some may feel worse than prison.

I’m not condoning that choice but recognize the consequences are particularly low when you’re already at the bottom.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#189
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't throw around accusations of victim-blaming like this. No one is claiming that the victim is at fault. But I do think it's useful information to pass along that it's possible to get notified of things like this before they become big problems. It's like... it's not my fault if I get mugged at 3am in a part of the city known for being full of violent crime, but I also should have known better than to be wa…

The problem is the absurdly unjust system that needs monitoring. It's not "just the way the world works", because it doesn't have to be the way that it is, and it should not be the way that it is. A system that requires constant, complicated intervention to function properly ensures that those with the resources and background to know that they have to exercise constant vigilance against malfeasance will come out ahe…

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