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Crypto Cities

vitalik.ca

31–40 of 55 posts

Re: Crypto Cities

#31
His platform can even run Crypto Kitties without congesting.

Now they want to run crypto cities...gotta walk before you can run.

How about fixing crypto kitties first?

People have to pay such high fees that they are considering if it's even worth to have their kitties fuck with other kitties.

Re: Crypto Cities

#32
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess what I'm getting at is through what mechanism. I can already buy every single thing available in my local community with American currency. Why do the tokens improve this situation?

Local currencies are a thing since the middle age. They allow for a distinct set of rules (=! Inflation rate) governed by “local” representatives. In strong economies (like g7), it does not make much sense, granted. You may lose on the exchange processes vs “the global currency”, but your community may not care since aiming to trade locally. PS : in constant inflationary economies (read Argentina, i think 600% in 10y…

As the other commenter noted , I think you are misunderstanding what a stable coin is. A usd stable coin entitles you to one dollar. The same way a dollar bill entitles you to one dollar. You can use both of them to try to get further yield but they both entitle you to a dollar.

Re: Crypto Cities

#33

This (along with other posts from Vitalik) keep ignoring any solutions that don’t require blockchain. As an example, he writes: > Certificates, for example cryptographic proofs that some particular individual is a resident of the city, could be done on-chain for added verifiability and security (eg. if such certificates are issued on-chain, it would become obvious if a large number of false certificates are issued).…

Since "blockchain" is already a very stretched term, I think Cert Transparency log can be classified as a blockchain.

I can’t find it now, I remember the CT announcement posts explicitly calling it out as “not a blockchain”. The CloudFlare announcement also makes fun of it:

> Certificate Transparency brings accountability to the web PKI using a technology called a blockchain an append-only public ledger, an ordered list.

Crypto is really good at co-opting existing terms (crypto, Web3 for eg) and we shouldn’t let it go the other way as well, calling an ordered list a blockchain.

https://blog.cloudflare.com/introducing-certificate-transpar...

Re: Crypto Cities

#34

I find it amazing that 5 years after a catastrophic failure that could have killed Ethereum[1], Vitalik is pitching DAOs once again… But well, subprimes and CDS still exist, and the EU re-allowed using Meat and bone meal to feed castle 20 years after the mad cow disease, so I guess it's just that humans are just very bad at learning from our mistakes. [1] https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao#sec..…

Yes because the entire Ethereum community moved on and continued innovating and improving and there are now dozens of open source governance structures for DAOs in place that have been battle tested and are running multi-billion dollar treasuries now:

https://gnosis-safe.io/ https://www.metacartel.org/ https://compound.finance/governance https://daohaus.club/ https://snapshot.org/#/gitcoindao.eth

We are very good at learning from our mistakes.

Re: Crypto Cities

#35
post #7

I think I finally "get" crypto. This article made me see the light. Crypto is about secession - a techno-anarchy. Decentralized governance with a self-managed currency is effectively creating a new city-state. To be honest, the idea of the United States collapsing into a collection of Crypto City-States doesn't sound too bad. Better than a Mad Max scenario.

While his article uses the word "city", I think this is entirely misleading.

It would be more accurate to describe the unit of organization that it empowers as a "gang". ...an "organized semi-anonymous gang".

...and this is why it's very apt at developing organized crime.

Now, to a certain degree, a "gang" that is scalable enough, profitable enough, and efficient enough - could indeed carve out a geographical territory. ...and from there, it's not that different from a city-state or nation.

...but that level of scalability does not yet exist.

You could conceivably program into a massively scalable chain, things like a court system, a legislative system, a tax system, a land records system, etc... but we are very very far away from that.

It's like predicting cyborgs because I can strap my phone to my arm while running. None of that level of scalability nor integration exists or is even theoretically solved.

...but there is one thing I will say. Some generation in the future might look back at our problems with "democracy" and the issues we have with one-man-one-vote, and laugh because the notion of humans having equal votes is a long gone memory. The crypto-hierarchy won't care about anything other than your "stake".

Re: Crypto Cities

#36

This (along with other posts from Vitalik) keep ignoring any solutions that don’t require blockchain. As an example, he writes: > Certificates, for example cryptographic proofs that some particular individual is a resident of the city, could be done on-chain for added verifiability and security (eg. if such certificates are issued on-chain, it would become obvious if a large number of false certificates are issued).…

Lots of things "don't need" to be written in python, but they're written in python anyway. I expect a lot of blockchain institutional use cases will take a similar route: sure, theoretically they could use some standardized federated solution, but in practice blockchain tx fees will become low enough through layer-2s to be negligible and that's where all the infrastructure to help users verify what's going on, and use those verifications in other applications, will be built. NFTs are already an incredibly easy to use and verify type of certificate; their biggest weakness is that (because of limitations in technology that are completely temporary and will disappear soon) transaction fees are too high.

Like... why _not_ dump Merkle roots on-chain?

Re: Crypto Cities

#37

This (along with other posts from Vitalik) keep ignoring any solutions that don’t require blockchain. As an example, he writes: > Certificates, for example cryptographic proofs that some particular individual is a resident of the city, could be done on-chain for added verifiability and security (eg. if such certificates are issued on-chain, it would become obvious if a large number of false certificates are issued).…

Why not though? I'm buying a house and this came to mind.

-Centralized city/county tokenizes all parcels of land, grants them to current owners

-I can prove I own it via a signed transaction, and anyone can trustlessly verify I own it

-When I sell it, I can trustlessly transfer it to the recipient for an agreed upon price via smart contract

Boom, no more closing fees. Eliminate the scammy title insurance industry. No broker fees... etc etc. Can someone ship this before I waste five figures paying parasites next month?

EDIT: Thoughts on flow.

-Seller owns token 123 in address A, which yourCity.gov shows is the following plat.

-Buyer approaches seller, provides address B. Seller provides address, buyer can verify that token matches plat via yourCity.gov

-Buyer and Seller agree on offer, Buyer provides address which reveals requisite funds.

-Seller generates a simple smart contract, _including the buyers address_. Code is essentially "upon receipt of 150 ETH from address B, this address will transfer token 123 to B".

The buyer can then pay or not, knowing that if he pays X he will receive Y (and thus, legal ownership enforced by the state). The seller can take down/invalidate the contract at any time before it executes. The seller could also put another contract up to another buyer, and if buyer #2 pays before buyer #1 they get the token (and any broadcasts from buyer 1 fail because the token is gone).

Seems pretty transparent to me.

Re: Crypto Cities

#38
post #37

This (along with other posts from Vitalik) keep ignoring any solutions that don’t require blockchain. As an example, he writes: > Certificates, for example cryptographic proofs that some particular individual is a resident of the city, could be done on-chain for added verifiability and security (eg. if such certificates are issued on-chain, it would become obvious if a large number of false certificates are issued).…

Why not though? I'm buying a house and this came to mind. -Centralized city/county tokenizes all parcels of land, grants them to current owners -I can prove I own it via a signed transaction, and anyone can trustlessly verify I own it -When I sell it, I can trustlessly transfer it to the recipient for an agreed upon price via smart contract Boom, no more closing fees. Eliminate the scammy title insurance industry. No…

If someone steals the crypto keys to your house and transfers it to themselves are the cops going to come and kick you out of the house?

Re: Crypto Cities

#39
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not though? I'm buying a house and this came to mind. -Centralized city/county tokenizes all parcels of land, grants them to current owners -I can prove I own it via a signed transaction, and anyone can trustlessly verify I own it -When I sell it, I can trustlessly transfer it to the recipient for an agreed upon price via smart contract Boom, no more closing fees. Eliminate the scammy title insurance industry. No…

If someone steals the crypto keys to your house and transfers it to themselves are the cops going to come and kick you out of the house?

The gov could have a legal process to re-issue you a new token and invalidate the old one.

Re: Crypto Cities

#40
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this? : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_currency "aims to encourage spending within a local community"

But you don't need cryptocurrencies for a local currency. In fact, you better not use one because you don't need the distributed part of it, and you definitely want to be able to control the money supply. A centralized electronic system or a paper-based system are all you need. Or maybe use Taler[1] if you want some cool tech with bleeding edge cryptography. [1]: https://taler.net/en/

And in those cases there could be censorship and manipulation you're not aware of.
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