Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen' • Hacker News Board

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#71

Post by _0ffh » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

Androider wrote: post #15

> Once the house was sold to the new owner for £131,000 by the person impersonating Mr Hall, they legally owned it. That's nuts. Why isn't it the case that the person who failed to properly vet the seller is out of £131,000 and the house? So I can "buy" a local mansion and then say "oops, I didn't know this random guy didn't own it. Oh well."

Yeah, A gets scammed by B and C pays the price.

If you can't get a hold on B, then clearly A should be the one all outta luck, not C.

Absolutely insane!

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#72

Post by chrisseaton » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

krisoft wrote: post #66

chrisseaton wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The criminal matter, as alleged, is that someone scammed the buyer, the solicitors and the Land Registry Did you notice who you didn't list there? The home owner. The criminal issue doesn't involve him!

> The criminal issue doesn't involve him! Of course it does. If it is as alleged, then the home owner and the new "owner" is equally victims of the crime.

Maybe you know more about law in the UK than I, but I believe the criminal issue is between HM's Land Registry and the person who sold it, and there is only a civil issue between the rightful owner and anyone.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#73

Post by vmception » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

lbriner wrote: post #64

vmception wrote: post #43

Another reason to use an anonymous LLC/entity. The owning entity gets a new state identification number which won't have appeared in as many leaks to be impersonated. While the individual owner of the LLC isn't known to impersonate.

Not a reason for the UK. We don't have anonymous companies like the US e.g. by assigning your attorney as a director so they can hide behind privilege. The Directors of your limited company would be available for all to see with their address!

The company that buys the house doesn't need to be formed in the UK.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#74

Post by _0ffh » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

m4tthumphrey wrote: post #54

implements wrote: post #25

Any UK reader can avoid this by signing up to: https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/ It’s the Land Registry itself, it’s free, and: “Once you have signed up to the service, you will receive email alerts when certain activity occurs on your monitored properties, allowing you to take action if necessary.”

Just signed up to this. Only alpha numeric passwords allowed. Always worries me.

I guess you'll just have to hope that they don't truncate the password after the first eight characters or so...

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#75

Post by mytailorisrich » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

tialaramex wrote: post #56

lbriner wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer but the article implies that once the title is transferred, the new owner owns it! There might be liability with the Solicitor or the Land Registry, otherwise it would appear to be incredibly unfair!

The Land Registry is the final arbitor of who owns what in England and Wales. So yes, right now the Registry says this New Owner owns this property, there is no way to contest this in a court of law, the official Land Registry paperwork is de jure supreme, it has the same legal effect as if an Officer from the Registry was in Court to say yup, that's who owns this property says the Crown. But, of course what we've go…

> The Land Registry is the final arbitor of who owns what in England and Wales.

I don't think that's true because for instance there are still properties unregistered (as mandatory registration was phased in until 1990). Certainly it seems possible to rectify the Register, not least in case of fraud [1]

Also, in English law, a valid sale of land must meet strict criteria, including being made by Deed. I am not a lawyer but I don't see how the Deed can valid in this case since it did not involve the legal owner at all!

Since solicitors must check identities (how could they have failed that?) and executing a Deed includes signing it in the presence of a witness I suspect a number of people have at the minimum massively screwed up, and the witness is likely an accomplice.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rectification-and...

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#76

Post by handrous » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

freeqaz wrote: post #2

Is it roughly the same to "prove" your identity in the US as it is in the UK? In the US, at least for most credit checks, you just need your SSN, some public record data about where you've lived, and personal data (name, DOB, etc). It's largely because there is no "National ID" system in the US (due to political reasons). That makes it hard for companies to track people, and the SSN is the only number that people con…

The situation with government data in the US is extremely frustrating. Between the government themselves and quasi-governmental private companies (the credit bureaus) they know practically everything about us—but we refuse to let them use that information in any kind of helpful way to make our lives easier and reduce our stress & workloads, because that would be "big brother" or a step toward ushering in the end times (for foreigners: yes, seriously, that's not a joke) or whatever.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#77

Post by Aulig » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

Something similar happened in Germany recently. A house worth millions was fraudulently sold like this. The original owners got it back luckily.

German video about it: https://youtu.be/TolvzYzk64c

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#78

Post by kybernetyk » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

Police: “not my problem, lol”.

The joy of paying taxes.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#79

Post by ineedasername » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

tialaramex wrote: post #56

lbriner wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer but the article implies that once the title is transferred, the new owner owns it! There might be liability with the Solicitor or the Land Registry, otherwise it would appear to be incredibly unfair!

The Land Registry is the final arbitor of who owns what in England and Wales. So yes, right now the Registry says this New Owner owns this property, there is no way to contest this in a court of law, the official Land Registry paperwork is de jure supreme, it has the same legal effect as if an Officer from the Registry was in Court to say yup, that's who owns this property says the Crown. But, of course what we've go…

Strange that the Land Registry decides on an issue that is basically a matter of contract law: The buyer entered into a fraudulent contract.

Nonetheless, here's how the Land Registry handles matters of fraud: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rectification-and...

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#80

Post by gruez » Mon, Nov 01, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

vmception wrote: post #43

Another reason to use an anonymous LLC/entity. The owning entity gets a new state identification number which won't have appeared in as many leaks to be impersonated. While the individual owner of the LLC isn't known to impersonate.

1. doesn't that shift the problem to impersonating the LLC? If anything that seems easier than impersonating a person?

2. does this work with financing? how do mortgages work?