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Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#61

Post by pmyteh »

lbriner wrote: post #42
krisoft wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The key problem is that it is a civil matter. No. The criminal matter, as alleged, is that someone scammed the buyer, the solicitors and the Land Registry into believing that they are who they were not. That is not a civil matter, it is I believe fraud. If a bloke sells their house, but then gets cold feet, or not happy with the compensation that is a civil matter. This is not what is alleged.

Yes, it is unclear why the police told him it was civil since fraud is "misrepresentation for a gain", which the fraudulent seller presumably did. Maybe the argument is that without proof that the fraudulent seller made a gain, it is merely a Tort and not Fraud?

I suspect the average PC called out to an argument between two seemingly innocent parties about ownership is going to want to get as far away from it as possible...

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#62

Post by michaelt »

AmericanBlarney wrote: post #4
freeqaz wrote: post #2

Is it roughly the same to "prove" your identity in the US as it is in the UK? In the US, at least for most credit checks, you just need your SSN, some public record data about where you've lived, and personal data (name, DOB, etc). It's largely because there is no "National ID" system in the US (due to political reasons). That makes it hard for companies to track people, and the SSN is the only number that people con…

Seems pretty questionable as to whether due diligence was done given the first indicator neighbors had of the sale was after the transaction occurred. At least in the U.S. it's typically pretty tough to miss that a house is up for sale - signage, open houses, realtors showing up to give tours. Curious how this buyer even connected with the seller.

In the UK there's no requirement that 'For Sale' signs be put up. Very few people look for a house to buy by driving around looking for such signs - online listings are what drive the traffic these days, and you can sell a house with nothing but online listings.

Of course, most buyers will want to see the house themselves before making an offer, as estate agents are famously creative in their property descriptions. If you're getting a mortgage to buy a house, the bank will generally insist on a 'survey' where an independent third party turns up and confirms that the building physically exists and suchlike.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#63

Post by rkangel »

chrisseaton wrote: post #48
rkangel wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, in this case it should be both. It is a civil matter to get the house back, but obviously there was also some criminal fraud involved. The victim of the fraud though is presumably the land registry rather than the house owner.

> It is a civil matter to get the house back Well that's what he cares about.

Sure. But as a distant second place after having somewhere to live, I would also want the fraudster to go to prison. Assuming this article is correct, he was "told by the police they didn't believe a criminal offence had been committed here" which seems dumb.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#64

Post by lbriner »

vmception wrote: post #43

Another reason to use an anonymous LLC/entity. The owning entity gets a new state identification number which won't have appeared in as many leaks to be impersonated. While the individual owner of the LLC isn't known to impersonate.

Not a reason for the UK. We don't have anonymous companies like the US e.g. by assigning your attorney as a director so they can hide behind privilege.

The Directors of your limited company would be available for all to see with their address!

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#65

Post by chrisseaton »

rkangel wrote: post #63
chrisseaton wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is a civil matter to get the house back Well that's what he cares about.

Sure. But as a distant second place after having somewhere to live, I would also want the fraudster to go to prison. Assuming this article is correct, he was "told by the police they didn't believe a criminal offence had been committed here" which seems dumb.

The home owner has not been scammed. The land registry and the buyer have been scammed.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#66

Post by krisoft »

chrisseaton wrote: post #49
krisoft wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The key problem is that it is a civil matter. No. The criminal matter, as alleged, is that someone scammed the buyer, the solicitors and the Land Registry into believing that they are who they were not. That is not a civil matter, it is I believe fraud. If a bloke sells their house, but then gets cold feet, or not happy with the compensation that is a civil matter. This is not what is alleged.

> The criminal matter, as alleged, is that someone scammed the buyer, the solicitors and the Land Registry Did you notice who you didn't list there? The home owner. The criminal issue doesn't involve him!

> The criminal issue doesn't involve him!

Of course it does. If it is as alleged, then the home owner and the new "owner" is equally victims of the crime.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#67

Post by yupper32 »

irrational wrote: post #8
AmericanBlarney wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems pretty questionable as to whether due diligence was done given the first indicator neighbors had of the sale was after the transaction occurred. At least in the U.S. it's typically pretty tough to miss that a house is up for sale - signage, open houses, realtors showing up to give tours. Curious how this buyer even connected with the seller.

I live in the USA, this year we both sold our previous home and purchased our new home without the use of signage, open houses, tours, realtors, etc. We found the house we bought and found the buyers of our old house through our network of friends. We filled out all the paperwork from forms we printed off online. The title company took care of everything after that. It was all done completely online until the very la…

> I live in the USA, this year we both sold our previous home and purchased our new home without the use of signage, open houses, tours, realtors, etc. We found the house we bought and found the buyers of our old house through our network of friends. We filled out all the paperwork from forms we printed off online.

Surely you left a massive amount of money on the table then, right?

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#68

Post by bluGill »

merpnderp wrote: post #33
pjdemers wrote: post #18

In the US, there is title insurance. If the seller didn't have the legal right to sell the house, the house reverts to the legal owner, and the buyer is paid back by the insurance. It's not possible to get a mortgage without title insurance, and a cash buyer would be nuts to not demand it from the seller. In some states (example, California) it can get more complicated, though, because the right to sell a house isn't…

In some states you can buy a house without title insurance. I assume this is so that people who enjoy Russian roulette and jumping out of planes without parachutes can enjoy the same adrenaline rush when buying a home.

Some states protect their titles better than others. In Iowa (possibly other states) land transfers are done by the state who verifies the seller really has right to sell the property, so title insurance isn't something you need to buy. (title insurance does cover other things as well, so banks make your buy it for those things, but once the sale is closed it is your property)

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#69

Post by jaclaz »

freeqaz wrote: post #2

Is it roughly the same to "prove" your identity in the US as it is in the UK? In the US, at least for most credit checks, you just need your SSN, some public record data about where you've lived, and personal data (name, DOB, etc). It's largely because there is no "National ID" system in the US (due to political reasons). That makes it hard for companies to track people, and the SSN is the only number that people con…

I believe it depends, a house sale is no "ordinary" matter.

In other european countries like, say, Italy, Spain, France there are national ID's and - opposed to solicitors like in the UK - notaries which are a sort of public officials for the contract (and they will check and certify the identities of the people involved, besides the acts of property) and you won't likely be able to open an account or however cash a check (I mean large sums, like the sale of a house) with someone else's identity in any bank without proper ID.

Possibly, with at least two well forged pieces of ID[1], you can get around it in the bank, but I don't think it is easy.

[1] this is (or used to be) a common request, though I doubt it is Law, when you want to open a bank account in Italy, and you need to exhibit the actual documents, not a photo or similar.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#70

Post by Causality1 »

pmyteh wrote: post #51
lbriner wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer but the article implies that once the title is transferred, the new owner owns it! There might be liability with the Solicitor or the Land Registry, otherwise it would appear to be incredibly unfair!

That's right, I think. The property can be recovered from the fraudster, but not from an innocent subsequent purchaser. There is at least some form of compensation scheme by the Land Registry. And 'selling on behalf of someone who isn't the actual owner' certainly can found a liability claim on the solicitor.

That's wild. Is there any other case where someone gets to keep stolen property as long as they didn't know it was stolen? I have to say if I was in the victim's position, my reaction would probably land me in prison for longer than the fraudster.
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