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University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

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Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#111

Post by Miner49er »

throwawayboise wrote: post #56
notreallyserio wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a real risk that voter ID laws could bar more legitimate voters than illegitimate. If you feel there were, say, 1000 fraudulent votes but that voter ID legislation would prevent 10000 legitimate votes, would that be an acceptable trade off? I say no. And from what I have read in the past the ratio is far worse.

I mean, I have needed ID to vote for 30 years. I don't understand the objection to making some effort to verify that the person presenting himself as J. Random Voter is actually who he says he is.

Why make voting harder and more expensive then it already is?

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#112

Post by ameister14 »

gpm wrote: post #76
ameister14 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? You were saying that the public university is subject to 1st amendment restrictions in this instance, that case says it could be otherwise. From the note: "In a 5-to-4 decision authored by Justice Anthony Kennedy, the Supreme Court held that speech by a public official is only protected if it is engaged in as a private citizen, not if it is expressed as part of the official's public duties."

No, that case says that they are restricted by the first amendment, and discusses what exactly that stops the from doing. It does not say they might not be restricted by the first amendment. The original comment I was replying to was arguing that "Google does this, therefore the university can", but that is not the case. Google is not bound by the first amendment, the university is, the argument fails at step 0. That…

point taken, thanks

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#113

Post by denton-scratch »

endisneigh wrote: post #63
obelos wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, really. State schools are public institutions. Their employees are public employees. As public institutions, they are not legally permitted to enact policy that infringes 1A rights. A private school could have more leeway on this—subject to employment law, union contracts, etc—but a public school is very limited. A public professor could be censured for expressing testimony that, for example, reveals that they a…

We'll have to see how the lawsuit pans out, but I doubt you're right here. Public institutions are in no way obligated to let their members serve as expert witnesses in their capacity as an employee. See Garcetti v. Ceballos. However nothing is stopping them from testifying against the institution in their capacity as a private citizen. This is why whistleblowing is possible. UF is saying they cannot be expert witnes…

An expert witness acts as a servant of the court, not as the agent of their employer. Naming the UoF as your employer is simply stating the truth to the court about your credentials; it doesn't mean the UoF has to take responsibility for your testimony.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#114

Post by jaywalk »

sonotathrowaway wrote: post #61
poorjohnmacafee wrote: post #40

Most countries, including EU nations, ban mail-in voting minus exceptions like living abroad, these laws being passed because of discovered fraud in elections. Election integrity is the difference between democracy and a one-party state. Every citizen should be bending over backwards to make sure our elections dont have sources of fraud.

The biggest threat to democracy has occurred from people who espouse language just like this, in several recent instances: the insurrection attempt on January 6th, where conspirators attempted to use violence to overturn a free and fair election, in Michigan, where factions of that same ideology planned the kidnapping and public execution of democratically elected leaders, and spates of domestic terrorism across the…

>factions of that same ideology planned the kidnapping and public execution of democratically elected leaders

Are you talking about the plot the FBI cooked up against Whitmer? The one that's in the process of being laughed out of court?

Your bias has completely blinded you to reality.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#115

Post by CoastalCoder »

josefresco wrote: post #33
CoastalCoder wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to nitpick, but calling this un-American strikes me as the No True Scotsman fallacy. I.e., Florida is part of the U.S. So if Florida does it, in at least a small way it is American.

It doesn't represent American ideals, but it does represent the reality of America's current (and past) political and cultural landscape. Making it difficult for certain groups of people to participate in the democratic process is unfortunately a long-standing American tradition.

> It doesn't represent American ideals

Could you expand on that?

My original comment was based on the assumption that the Florida issue demonstrated a lack of ideological consensus amongst Americans. Thus my "no true Scotsman" observation.

So I see two ways that I might have been off the mark:

(a) Florida's actions don't represent those officials' ideals, or

(b) we somehow don't include those officials' ideals when talking about American ideals.

Both (a) and (b) seem like interesting topics of discussion.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#116

Post by notreallyserio »

singlow wrote: post #107
ceejayoz wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a... > For Settles to get one of those, his name has to match his birth certificate — and it doesn’t. In 1964, when he was 14, his mother married and changed his last name. After Texas passed a new voter-ID law, officials told Settles he had to show them his name-change certificate from 1964 to qualify for a new identification card to vote. > So with the help…

Can he not vote using the name the State does recognize?

Wouldn’t that be fraud under voter ID law, providing a false name?

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#117

Post by orangepurple »

poorjohnmacafee wrote: post #40

Most countries, including EU nations, ban mail-in voting minus exceptions like living abroad, these laws being passed because of discovered fraud in elections. Election integrity is the difference between democracy and a one-party state. Every citizen should be bending over backwards to make sure our elections dont have sources of fraud.

There is basically zero public evidence of election fraud in the US. It's irrelevant. What matters is the people who are in charge of developing, handling, and operating the voting machines and systems. There is zero public information about the chain of custody and potential vulnerabilities in the chain. This should be vastly more concerning.

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#118

Post by SkeuomorphicBee »

the_snooze wrote: post #67
notreallyserio wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a real risk that voter ID laws could bar more legitimate voters than illegitimate. If you feel there were, say, 1000 fraudulent votes but that voter ID legislation would prevent 10000 legitimate votes, would that be an acceptable trade off? I say no. And from what I have read in the past the ratio is far worse.

When it comes to voter ID, the devil is in the details. I'm a poll worker in Virginia and think our ID laws are pretty fair. We accept driver's licenses and passports, sure, but we also take employer photo ID, any current Virginia school ID, and even old Virginia driver's licenses up to a year after expiration. If a state gives affordances like these to make it easy for people to fulfill the ID requirement, I don't s…

I don't know anything about Virginia, but based on your comment alone I see clearly what the problem is. What you described is a system that disenfranchises everyone that satisfies tree simple rules: doesn't drive, don't travel internationally, and don't work for a large company. E.g. urban poor service-industry worker (outside of chains, no restaurant issues employer IDs).

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#119

Post by ceejayoz »

ameister14 wrote: post #109
ceejayoz wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems clear "serve as a witness on this case" is not part of these officials' public duties, yes?

I don't think that's clear, actually. If they are testifying as UF professors, they might be acting in the course of their duties because they are representing the university. I think that's the argument, anyway, and why if they testify just as concerned citizens there would be no way to stop them.

They're being forbidden by the university to testify.

How can testifying be one of their official duties?

Re: University of Florida bars professors from testifying in a voting rights case

#120

Post by hereme888 »

voakbasda wrote: post #102
mercy_dude wrote: post #95

Good news is and many in the academic sphere may not realize this - many faculties universities are going to go out of business at this rate. One silver lining during this time has been, many have realized how much they are overpaying for things they can learn online or through their own efforts. There is no reason you need to spend 200k+ for a degree in Sociology and Gender Studies. Other than medicine, law a few sc…

After my experience in public schools, college and then grad school, I plan to homeschool my children and will actively dissuade them from going to college. The value of those institutions is purely negative at this point in US history. Like most of our government.

Exactly my thoughts. They're inefficient, overpriced, and outdated models. From what I've seen first-hand, homeschooling or similar schooling methods, in community efforts (not home schooling in isolation), is much more efficient and healthy.
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