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Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

economist.com

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Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#161
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we all dream up these world-formulas in the bathtub. Without going deeper into your "analysis" I assure you that there is no single, unifying causality to the effects you describe. I also assure you that my country (germany) has a really bad track-record of listening to guys with "easy answers" whose arguments started out strikingly similar to yours.

> I also assure you that my country (germany) has a really bad track-record of listening to guys with "easy answers" whose arguments started out strikingly similar to yours. Right. That's the whole point - there will be beligerent nations, and pacifist nations will get rolled by them unless they've got a strong ally to bail them out. It was the militant nations (USA, Britain, Russia) that bailed out the appeasement/p…

I don't think I'd let Britain duck the charge of being an "appeasement nation".

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#162
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tunisia is self-destructing, has one of the world highest divorce rate, slow birth rate that will make it disappear if not solved early, more than 10% of the population working/living abroad, and enough social/life mess that I/my friends want to somehow leave the country and live in another place. Yet, we did no wars, made no commercial/art explosion (even food we don't produce). It's not about wars, allies or anythi…

>- Values: That's why religion works, it keeps values deep inside and transmit them from a generation to another. More people have died on armed conflicts in the name of religion than for any other reason. National Socialism, for example, is a drop in the bucket compared to it. In the 'States, non-religious people are much less likely to be in jail. Religion is great at transmitting values, no doubt, but it's usually…

You have no idea what the relevant numbers are. The estimated loss of life during the Crusades ranges from 3-10 million lives. Current estimates place the Russian loss of life alone from WWII at 19.5 million.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#163
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan cannot re-militarize. It's constitutionally impossible. Even if they could I think there's more going on here. There's a lot of underlying conflict in Japanese culture that isn't immediately visible. This kind of conflict spans thousands of years of cultural history; the cultural thing to do is to hide your true feelings in the name of harmonious relationships[1]. But the outcome doesn't seem to be that conflic…

Actually the reason why Japan cannot re-militarize is that it already has done so decades ago. Its military may be called "self defence forces" rather than "armed forces", but it really is a well-funded army of moderate size (6th highest military expenditures in the world).

The constitution MacArthur oversaw specifically forbids a military[1] and despite recent attempts to amend the constitution this has not happened. However, the limit on a military force was later interpreted as provisioning a self-defense force, ergo SDF. It was intentionally limited so as to prevent Japan from immediately rising as a military power but to not require longterm occupation of Japan by U.S. forces[2][3].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Constitution_o...

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Japan#Disarmament

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces#Defen...

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how your policy recommendation relates to your initial observation (gender equality -> fertility). How does forcing the childless (note: people of both genders can be childless) to subsidize parents promote gender equality? (I'm not disagreeing with your suggesting that you can subsidize something to get more of it, I'm just trying to figure out how your last paragraph relates to the rest of your post.)

I may have made that jump too quick. First note that the childless already massively subsidize parents through taxes that pay for education. Also note that I am considering replacement levels of fertility desirable. The cost of being a mother, biologically, is vastly higher than being a father. This is further enhanced by cultural expectations for the mother to do most of the child raising. In other words, female par…

>First note that the childless already massively subsidize parents through taxes that pay for education. Also note that I am considering replacement levels of fertility desirable.

This isn't as simple as that. The tax revenue used for education in Texas comes from property taxes. The majority of that is from homeowners. The overwhelming majority of homeowners have or had children in the home at some point. Aside from those facts, would you like to live in a society where the children were not educated? I think you would find that the reduction in crime and the boost to the cheap labor force would be worth the investment.

The most important point this should make is: all of these things are fabulously complicated and interrelated.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a appealing theory, marred only by the fact that it is appears to be gibberish. At the very least, it's an extraordinary claim and makes no reference to the anything not more easily explained by the oft-noted equation between low GBP and high fertility - for example, seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TFR_vs_PPP_2009.svg If you can furnish a concrete series of examples of countries at a similar econ…

> This is a appealing theory, marred only by the fact that it is appears to be gibberish. Man, it's very possible to be skeptical without the asshole tone. It's a common theme in your comments, but it's really unnecessary. Anyways. It's a good point, regardless of tone. Where'd my analysis come from? I've noted that: -You see baby booms frequently after the conclusion of war, increasing fertility. -As nations age and…

I'm going to leave the ad homs to one side, though I suspect a review of your comment history would reveal a parade of unwarrantedly self-assured geek autodidacticism... hey, it's milder than 'asshole'. Here's a deal; I'll be less snarky if people like you can be less pretentious.

I'm still baffled as to your evidence; apparently the Mongolians are hard bastards and like fucking, or something. What's asinine is that you have no evidence for your wild, extraordinary claim. None. Never mind PhD level. Give a couple examples that you think support this idea that aren't equally well explained by the traditional 'stone broke and ignorant and breeding like mad to make sure at least one survives' model. Explain why Russia is at a fertility rate of 1.34 and Iceland is at 2.05, for example. New Zealanders are breeding like rabbits compared to Belorussians, etc. Not sure who has the Burberry and who has the fighter planes there, but I doubt it bears out your ideas...

I don't want a PhD thesis. I want you to come out with a single convincing case where your 'let's be warlike' stuff explains the way the world is better than the default "broke people breed more" model.

Appeal to authority are all very well (your idea has been 'noted' by 'notable' guys!), but Gibbon is a contentious source for any kind of assertion about the modern world, having not, well, seen it. Like many pretentious high school students, I've read him, but may not be the better for it. At least you could name-check Spengler or something; this would be just as embarrassing as anything else you've written on this thread but at least more topical.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#166
Seems to me that the article missed the most central point. Let's start with a little, simple, relevant background:

(1) In the past, e.g., in tribal or agricultural communities, women had children whether they really 'wanted' to or not.

(2) Now in more industrialized countries, a significant fraction of women have some options. Some women still have children but some women do not want to have children and do not.

(3) The change in number of children per woman is a 900 pound gorilla in the room: The article mentioned numbers under 2 children per women with a rate a low as 1 child per woman. There is some recent data that Finland is at 1.5 children per woman.

Of course, for any rate much under 2, each 20 years or so the population will be going down significantly. "Get your old houses, furniture, dishes, baby clothes, etc. cheap, cheap, cheap!".

So, net, heavily women who don't want to have children won't. These women will be 'weak, sick, dead limbs on the tree' and will be pruning their genes from the tree. What will be left are women who, given the choice, actually, effectively WANT to have children.

The big point: After a few such generations, we will be left with a much smaller population with many fewer women but nearly all of whom WANT to have children. Then the population will start growing again.

One more big, surprising point: We are now, in much of the world, in the most rapid change in the gene pool of the last 40,000 or so years.

Where did the 40,000 come from? Humans walked out of Africa back there somewhere. At one point, ballpark 40,000 years ago, they reached, say, India. One branch went west to Western Europe, and another branch went east to China and Japan. Mostly the two branches haven't much mixed since then.

Okay, at the common branch, ballpark 40,000 years ago, what were women like? Well, take women from Japan and women from Western Europe. Take some 'characteristic' in common, say, desire of a major fraction of the women, given an economic opportunity, not to have children. Now, start in either Japan or Western Europe and count genetic 'changes' on this 'characteristic' going backwards in the tree to the common branch, about 40,000 years ago, and, then, continuing to count changes, going forward in the other branch of the tree to the present.

So, if on this characteristic the women in Japan and Western Europe are close, that is, have few changes, then on this characteristic the common ancestor 40,000 years ago has still fewer, that is, is closer to the women in both Japan and Western Europe than they are to each other.

Net, since a significant fraction of women in both Japan and Western Europe will, given an economic opportunity, choose not to have children, that is, these women are close to each other, both are still closer to their common ancestor 40,000 years ago. So, for 40,000 years, many women had children not really because they 'wanted' to but because of economic necessity.

So, now that women who don't really want to have children are being pruned from the tree, we are, on this characteristic, in the most rapid change in the human gene pool of the past 40,000 years. And, the change is VERY rapid, should have a huge effect in just a few generations, say, just 100 years, which on the scale of 40,000 years, is FAST.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#167
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we all dream up these world-formulas in the bathtub. Without going deeper into your "analysis" I assure you that there is no single, unifying causality to the effects you describe. I also assure you that my country (germany) has a really bad track-record of listening to guys with "easy answers" whose arguments started out strikingly similar to yours.

> I also assure you that my country (germany) has a really bad track-record of listening to guys with "easy answers" whose arguments started out strikingly similar to yours. Right. That's the whole point - there will be beligerent nations, and pacifist nations will get rolled by them unless they've got a strong ally to bail them out. It was the militant nations (USA, Britain, Russia) that bailed out the appeasement/p…

there will be beligerent nations, and pacifist nations will get rolled by them unless they've got a strong ally to bail them out.

Over here in europe we have that ally, it's called NATO.

And despite all its flaws it seems like a more reasonable approach, rather than encouraging individual nations to build nationalistic regimes (all the way down to the "standard messages") in order to protect against potentially "beligerent" neighbours.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#168

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

Have you read "The Fates of Nations" by Paul Colinvaux? It's a fascinating - and disturbing - book, covering the exact topic you are talking about.

But where Colinvaux and myself would disagree with you, is the direction of the cause and effect.

My interpretation is that a society starts off warlike. At some point it either conquers, or is conquered by its neighbors. Once the empire is at its natural borders, war no longer provides a good economic rate of return. People avoid the army and instead go into trade or farming. The imperial peace provides a stable base for commerce and industry. People become rich. As they grow rich, and as the need for martial valor declines, people become more decadent. They spend more on luxuries, they have less need for children. Thus both a decline in fertility and a decline in aggressiveness are symptoms of the underlying cause (war no longer being necessary for survival, and war no longer providing a good rate of return). Eventually though, on the borders of the empire some new, highly fertile, highly aggressive population arises. Meanwhile the old growth civilization has long lost its martial prowess, and each individual resident faces a game theory optimum of continuing the decadence, rather than face the rigors of a martial life. Thus the bordering tribe eventually is strong enough to invade, the old civilization falls, and the cycles of history continue.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#169
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japanese don't need/want sex? Surely the Japanese are as horny as the rest of us. You'd have to come up with some pretty convincing data (surveys aren't worth anything when asking questions about sex) to convince me that there is some great difference in libido between Western and Eastern cultures.

There is no data other than surveys I could think of to prove this “allegation”. I am sorry; you will have to remain unconvinced. On a side note, I did not believe it either. But the fact that a couple would want to have sex every week, or even more never ceased to blow the mind of Japanese people I talked to.

Could this be repressed sexuality? How can one explain the fact that Japanese produce some of the weirdest and sickest fetish porn?

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#170
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, considering that humans are on top of the food chain, maybe what you describe is a good thing (and we have it in our genes): Population can not grow forever on a planet with a limited amount of resorces. So people either stop having children, or begin killing each other.

malthusian arguments have been debunked. humans are wealth producing, not destroying.

"Humanity grows exponentially, food production grows linearly" has not been debunked. People have starved in the last few decades, and we barely managed to avoid a widespread catastrophe through a big one-time upgrade to the best farming techniques known. How many other improvements are left before we reach biology's productivity limits? How long until we run low on natural gas to make fertilizer, having long since mined the pre-existing fertility from the soil?
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