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Using a VPN could become a criminal offence under new CFAA interpretation

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Re: Using a VPN could become a criminal offence under new CFAA interpretation

#41
post #9

Well… first it’s not a « public » website; like Facebook and Google, you connect to a privately owned server and, while the « path » is public, the server you contact isn’t. So they are well within their right to block anyone. But trying to make illegal a way to bypass their security is a really dangerous way and if they win, then many, many, privacy tech would have a problem. Hope the judge know how to use a compute…

>But trying to make illegal a way to bypass their security is a really dangerous way and if they win, then many, many, privacy tech would have a problem.

IIUC, there was no attempt to "bypass security." Rather, HiQ Labs was scraping unrestricted (i.e., not restricted by user ACLs) portions of Linkedin's web platform.

If any random user can access a particular web page, it's (IMHO) publicly available and using automated tools to scrape those pages is perfectly legal.

In fact, such scraping is done all the time on airline, hotel and other websites without issue.

As for VPNs, I'm guessing that LinkedIn blocked HiQ Labs' IP range, so they used a VPN to continue scraping the public pages. If my assumption isn't valid, please correct me. That

IP blocks (I'm thinking geo-blocks[0] for sites like Netflix) are sometimes necessary for the site to at least attempt to stay in contractual compliance with the content owners.

However, that doesn't seem to be the case here. If (again, this is my understanding) LinkedIn is just blocking HiQ Labs' IP range, but no one else's, that seems (as the 9th Circuit originally ruled[1]) like a targeted attempt to interfere with HiQ Labs' business:

   The Ninth Circuit held that there was no abuse of 
   discretion by the district court where the court 
   had found that even if some LinkedIn users 
   retained their privacy despite their public 
   status, as they were not scraped, such privacy 
   interests did not outweigh hiQ's interest in 
   maintaining its business. 
Given that the issue here is publicly accessible content as compared to, say, geo-blocking of unlicensed (for that particular region) content, there is no basis to disallow such access.

I say this because I (or HQ Labs) could manually enter all publicly accessible URLs at LinkedIn and copy-paste the returned contents.

While that would be an arduous process, it's not only perfectly legal, it's LinkedIn's intent to provide those pages without requiring a login -- validated by the fact they don't require logins to access those pages, while they do require logins to access others.

IANAL, but it seems to me that worrying about using VPNs becoming a criminal act is a tempest in a teapot.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo-blocking

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiQ_Labs_v._LinkedIn

Edit: Corrected company name (HiQ vs. HiQ Labs).

Re: Using a VPN could become a criminal offence under new CFAA interpretation

#43
post #37

Title is bullshit

Unfortunately I cannot change the title, but this one would be the most accurate: "Using a VPN to bypass a GeoIp block could become a criminal offence under Linkedin's CFAA interpretation"

>Unfortunately I cannot change the title, but this one would be the most accurate: "Using a VPN to bypass a GeoIp block could become a criminal offence under Linkedin's CFAA interpretation"

I'm a little confused by that interpretation of the specific case in question (Hiq Labs v. LinkedIn).

IIUC, LinkedIn isn't doing GeoIP blocks (AFAIK, the San Francisco bay area is not being blocked by LinkedIn, just HiQ Labs' IP range).

What's more, HiQ Labs is scraping publicly available content. Most GeoIP blocking (such as Netflix/BBC, etc.) is done to keep subscribers from accessing content that the provider isn't licensed to provide in the location where the connection originates.

Even more, accessing such content even if you are in a location where that content is available requires a login (i.e., isn't publicly available) to access that content.

I don't see a parallel here.

As such, I'm not sure how the result here (either way) could impact the use of VPNs more broadly.

Then again, IANAL and may well be missing something.

If you'd expound on your reasoning around this, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Edit: Fixed typo.

Re: Using a VPN could become a criminal offence under new CFAA interpretation

#44
post #40

This is a good sensationalist title that could easily be changed to "Will using a VPN become illegal under the CFAA?" and like any such headlines, the answer is "no". Just because one side is making an argument for that interpretation in a civil case means pretty much exactly nothing. What's more, the Supreme Court in recent rulings has started to slap down overly broad interpretations of "hacking" under the CFAA. No…

Any headline I see with a question in that manner I don't click on. I know they will conclude with either "we don't know" or "no". It's just not worth reading unless you are interested in two sides of an argument but generally these articles are cheap fluff.

Re: Using a VPN could become a criminal offence under new CFAA interpretation

#45
post #9

Well… first it’s not a « public » website; like Facebook and Google, you connect to a privately owned server and, while the « path » is public, the server you contact isn’t. So they are well within their right to block anyone. But trying to make illegal a way to bypass their security is a really dangerous way and if they win, then many, many, privacy tech would have a problem. Hope the judge know how to use a compute…

I really wish that every legal professional and judicial administrator had some rudimentary computer science knowledge. Having friends whom are lawyers, I can tell you that most of them don't have any meaningful understanding of technology becauae they spend so many years of their career heads down on what is effecctively paperwork. They know enough to realize how bass ackwards their industry is when it comes to tech…

It would start with us software engineers to be more exact in our communications. For an engineering discipline, we’re terrible at it.

Take your example. I don’t know whether a web page is encrypted. I do however know whether the transmission of one request of some website contents to a specific web browser is. But that won’t yet tell me whether the communication between me and the website has stayed confidential between the intended parties (which is probably what you’re interested in).

Re: Using a VPN could become a criminal offence under new CFAA interpretation

#46
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ad blockers often include paywall/regwall bypasses, which does somewhat fit the description.

I would argue that it depends on how it is implemented. Some pay/reg walls are implemented such that the site is sending the full content to you but directing your web browser not to display it (like using a `display: none` CSS property). I would say using a browser extension to direct the browser to display it anyways wouldn't be a violation. You were authorized to make the initial request for the otherwise public p…

>I would say using a browser extension to direct the browser to display it anyways wouldn't be a violation. You were authorized to make the initial request for the otherwise public page and they choose to send the full content to you. You aren't making any other connections to their system that you aren't authorized to make.

An interesting point.

I, as a general rule, disable javascript in my daily driver browser (Firefox).

Doing so breaks the paywall on certain sites. I'm not specifically targeting those sites (e.g., with uBlock or noscript), as I've disabled javascript for all sites and don't use any extensions to bypass paywalls.

Where the use of javascript is required (and I find that out by visiting the site -- then decide whether I actually want to view/use it) I'll use a different browser altogether (in my case, Vivaldi).

I don't believe that disabling javascript is a "hacking" attempt, mostly because I don't do so to bypass anything -- rather, I don't want arbitrary javascript executing on my systems.

Re: Using a VPN could become a criminal offence under new CFAA interpretation

#47
post #40

This is a good sensationalist title that could easily be changed to "Will using a VPN become illegal under the CFAA?" and like any such headlines, the answer is "no". Just because one side is making an argument for that interpretation in a civil case means pretty much exactly nothing. What's more, the Supreme Court in recent rulings has started to slap down overly broad interpretations of "hacking" under the CFAA. No…

> Notably, the court recently curtailed the definition of "unauthorized" use in van Buren [1], which to me was a completely and somewhat unexpected ruling.

A pedantic point: van Buren decided the interpretation of "exceeds authorized access", not "without authorization". (There is no "unauthorized" in the statute--it says "accesses a computer without authorization or exceeds authorized access" as the operative part.)

Re: Using a VPN could become a criminal offence under new CFAA interpretation

#48
post #9

Well… first it’s not a « public » website; like Facebook and Google, you connect to a privately owned server and, while the « path » is public, the server you contact isn’t. So they are well within their right to block anyone. But trying to make illegal a way to bypass their security is a really dangerous way and if they win, then many, many, privacy tech would have a problem. Hope the judge know how to use a compute…

If I mail you a letter and you send a letter back, have I hacked your house? Let's say you don't respond, and I send my letter with a different return address and then you respond. That's basically what is happening here.

If you don't want people sending you letters, get rid of the mailbox. For tech, close your ports. If you don't want to send information out, stop responding to the letters (or packets).

Re: Using a VPN could become a criminal offence under new CFAA interpretation

#49
post #40

This is a good sensationalist title that could easily be changed to "Will using a VPN become illegal under the CFAA?" and like any such headlines, the answer is "no". Just because one side is making an argument for that interpretation in a civil case means pretty much exactly nothing. What's more, the Supreme Court in recent rulings has started to slap down overly broad interpretations of "hacking" under the CFAA. No…

Any headline I see with a question in that manner I don't click on. I know they will conclude with either "we don't know" or "no". It's just not worth reading unless you are interested in two sides of an argument but generally these articles are cheap fluff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...

Re: Using a VPN could become a criminal offence under new CFAA interpretation

#50
post #7

It's not being talked about because there's no evidence of "new CFAA interpretation" until the court says something like that. It's very common for parties to try and argue all kinds of extreme interpretations of law that might favor their case, with the expectation that it most likely will be refused but hey, it's worth to try; but they are not newsworthy until/unless the court actually considers the argument as val…

So only after it’s precedent and harder to undo then does it matter? This is basically saying there’s no point in testing software, ship every line to prod and see what happens. This is exactly the kind of political ennui the system purposely tries to inculcate. Not fine grain mind control, but indifference. Laws dictate acceptable social agency. One might think we’d take what ends up in them at least as seriously as…

notTheAuth is a pedophile! What are you going to do to fight this? Maybe it's just not something worth pursuing?
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