I'd argue its more unprofessional to lend your Senior-level software experience and expertise to a dysfunctional org that does not want to make an attempt to hear you out and improve things than to leave after 6 months.
Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?
121–130 of 288 posts
Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?
#122If you can't work efficiently in these conditions and can't fix anything, either because they don't let you or because you don't have the abilities, then you should leave, for yourself, for the company, and hopefully, for your next job.
I see two possible outcomes for your project: either they manage to hire (hopefully very well paid) people with the necessary skills and authority to clear that mess, or everyone competent will leave and only the most desperate will stay, and it will be terrible. If you are not a respected project savior and if you are competent and not desperate, then your place is elsewhere.
Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?
#123> I'm senior and was hired as such Someone hired you as a senior employee. Senior folks are expected to fix messes like what you describe. Go to the right person and ask for the political capital and support to fix 2 specific things. If you don't get a promise for that support or you don't see that support sustained, leave. If you get that support, fix exactly those 2 things as quickly as possible. Then ask for the s…
THIS advice is Spot-on!
I might add as a prospective new employer— what did you learn from this experience?
Essentially, I’m looking for leadership acumen and decision quality.
Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?
#124Q: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess? A: No. Notes: personally I would have either abandoned it during the first month or at the end of the probation period, depending on severity, otherwise I'd force myself to stick around for the year, so I wouldn't get questions during further interviews for why I stayed there only X months. A "hack" would be to endure until somewhere in January ne…
An alternative to hacking your resume is simply leaving the short position off altogether. Your resume doesn't have to be a total transcript of your career. It should just be a highlight of most relevant experiences for your desired job.
The same goes for really old jobs too btw - having a detailed explanation of your exploits in Java Swing on page 4 of your resume is likely distracting and irrelevant. Consider making your resume a single page with older jobs grouped together like "1999 - 2008 Various software gigs for Employers1 thorough Employer5"
Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?
#125No, it's not unprofessional and don't let anyone convince you otherwise.
A couple of years ago, I joined an analytics / big data / data engineering shop. I joined because I was in the process of finishing my thesis in physics, they gave me an offer early, and I didn't want to keep looking as I needed to reserve time for preparing for my final exam. Also, I was interested in data engineering, as it was a good mixture of math and software engineering practices.
When I got there, the skill levels of the developers surprised me. They knew very little, when I told them we should have an easy to setup dev environment, automate deployments, write tests, they looked at me like we didn't speak the same language. They just didn't get what I was saying and many of the concepts were totally new to them. The projects were boring and the technology was outdated. Nobody had a clue about communication, agile dev, XP or anything else that I value.
I stayed 6 weeks in total. 2 weeks to realize that their culture is terrible and it would make me a second (third?) tier, unhirable dev if I stayed. 2 weeks to find a new job and get a much better offer from a much better company with amazing people. 2 weeks because that was my notice period. Didn't regret it for a second and nobody else cared about it since, either.
Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?
#126If you’re not happy there then move on. Sometimes jumping ship sends a more vocal message than any thing else
Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or, "we had differing opinions on how to develop and maintain quality software." You can then answer almost any question (even, "what was the disagreement?") with your ideals, how you've put those ideals into practice in the past, and nothing more. You can indirectly explain the problem while keeping the conversation focused on the purpose of an interview: you and your prospective employer.
The danger is coming across as someone who is too fixed in their approach. I'm sure we've all worked in the past with people who thought they knew everything and walked around saying 'why won't everyone just do it in the way that I'm saying'. Focusing on specific issues and ways you worked with the organisation to improve things avoids that potential categorisation.
I think a good way of framing it, would be to say that your reasonable expectations in the organisational structure and culture have not been met.
Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
> to badmouth the company online, to recruiters, or to future prospective employers. If anyone asks why you quit you should say "I found a better opportunity." If you quit without another job lined up you may get asked in the future to explain the gap, so have an explanation that doesn't make you look unprofessional. It’s not as cut and dry. It is perfectly fine to say you left a company because what you were looking…
> It is perfectly fine to say you left a company because what you were looking for and what the company was doing didn’t align. As someone who has done a good share of interviewing and hiring in my career I disagree somewhat. The answer you gave (what you were looking for and what the company was doing didn't align) seems like a good neutral answer, but it immediately brings some questions to mind: 1. Did you not see…
"For example a lot of people now are asking to work remotely before they have demonstrated they can produce anything or function as part of a team. I may not be against remote work but to have that presented as a requirement or something I have to "align" my team with may be too much at the interview stage."
Are you for real? Interview is too early to ask about remote work?
Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?
#129Recruiters cost about 15% of your annual salary, to be paid in full if you complete the probation or the first 4-6 months. My first employer was angry when I quit at 6 months + 1 day (But the contract had a shorter leave term after 6 month, ironically).
As an employer now, I’d prefer you leave as soon as you want, after ensuring you’ve secured another position. It is in no-one’s interest to stay in an unwanted situation, even out of pure generosity for you.
As a recruiter, I wouldn’t know if someone stayed 3 months in an undesirable job, that seems normal.
Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you elaborate pls?
Giving your employer the standard two weeks notice is so if they're called by a place you'd like to work for reference they say they'd rehire you. If you go negative anytime during the exit process your management can use that to flip your re-hire status. That's just one way previous employers can affect someone who's left. The balance of power is firmly stacked against the employee and for the employer. If you want…
Also remember, Recruiters and HR move around to different companies a LOT, and they all know each other (BECAUSE they move around a lot!). So you may find that one of these folks at a company you apply to either knows someone involved with your hiring or leaving a previous company, or might have been involved themselves.