Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious. • Hacker News Board

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#131

Post by usaar333 » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:18 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #125

usaar333 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another theory: As this article points out a lot of woman aren't marrying or having kids because "being both employed and married is tough in Asia.". In other words, these countries have enough equality where women are allowed in the labor force but not enough where the society has set up strong institutions to deal with women in the labor force. Another economist article dealt with the impossibility of finding day c…

I'm not sure how your policy recommendation relates to your initial observation (gender equality -> fertility). How does forcing the childless (note: people of both genders can be childless) to subsidize parents promote gender equality? (I'm not disagreeing with your suggesting that you can subsidize something to get more of it, I'm just trying to figure out how your last paragraph relates to the rest of your post.)

I may have made that jump too quick.

First note that the childless already massively subsidize parents through taxes that pay for education. Also note that I am considering replacement levels of fertility desirable.

The cost of being a mother, biologically, is vastly higher than being a father. This is further enhanced by cultural expectations for the mother to do most of the child raising.

In other words, female parents take a far greater hit than male ones. (Indeed, child raising explains almost all of the male-female wage gap). Subsidizing parents effectively subsidizes women far more; it's basically an affirmative action program to compensate a disadvantage dealt by biology and society. (How the subsidy flows is tricky. As most people end up having kids, this subsidy is effectively mostly a transfer of wealth from fathers to mothers, across generations).

Some policies that may be clearer are government promotion of fathers taking care of kids via both advertisement and paternity leave. This breaks down traditional gender roles (promotes equality), while reducing the burden on the mother.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#132

Post by Mz » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:19 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #129

Mz wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused by your comment. Are you proposing Switzerland as a "peaceful" country as a counter example? Due to mountainous terrain, they are fairly "isolated"/protected from invasion (one of the points above re what works to provide long term peace) and they also have about 2/3's of the adult (male?) population as part of a standing militia (which is in line somewhat with another point: "military supremacy"). http:…

An armed society is a polite society Go check out sub-Saharan Africa, and see if that aphorism holds. If you can think of more than just guns, Switzerland is a counter-example because of its politics - instead of the OP's suggested "Japan should just join in the next war, it's necessary to save it's society", Switzerland has pursued a long policy of neutral politics. It doesn't "simply join in on wars on whatever sid…

There are exceptions to any saying.

I would still be curious to hear exactly what yaix was trying to say. Your assertions don't necessarily cast any light on what they had in mind.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#133

Post by vacri » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:30 PM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

This is patent nonsense. Every society has its day in the sun, military or not, and then collapses. The US is doing this as we speak - despite having the most powerful military the world has ever known, and almost spending more on its military than the rest of the world combined. It's been far from peaceful in the timeframe that Europe and Japan have been (several official wars, quite a number of unofficial ones). Far from renouncing war, the US both pursues and idolises it. And yet, despite it's magnificent military geographic isolationism, monster GDP and supreme military, its economy is tumbling - the exact opposite of what you're saying about a country that pursues military excellence.

Then there's all sorts of peaceful native societies that did fine for hundreds to thousands of years before the colonial nations came, with no implosion.

Your statement reads far more like you had a predetermined conclusion and decided to simply shoehorn your observations into it.

On the other hand, I'm wondering if you're just trolling - "studied a lot of history" and then saying "exceedingly good relations with China" combined with "japan remilitarises". I don't think you've read enough history there...

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#134

Post by icebraining » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:35 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #122

lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

Tunisia is self-destructing, has one of the world highest divorce rate, slow birth rate that will make it disappear if not solved early, more than 10% of the population working/living abroad, and enough social/life mess that I/my friends want to somehow leave the country and live in another place. Yet, we did no wars, made no commercial/art explosion (even food we don't produce). It's not about wars, allies or anythi…

>- Values: That's why religion works, it keeps values deep inside and transmit them from a generation to another.

More people have died on armed conflicts in the name of religion than for any other reason. National Socialism, for example, is a drop in the bucket compared to it.

In the 'States, non-religious people are much less likely to be in jail.

Religion is great at transmitting values, no doubt, but it's usually the wrong ones.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#135

Post by vacri » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:39 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #132

vacri wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An armed society is a polite society Go check out sub-Saharan Africa, and see if that aphorism holds. If you can think of more than just guns, Switzerland is a counter-example because of its politics - instead of the OP's suggested "Japan should just join in the next war, it's necessary to save it's society", Switzerland has pursued a long policy of neutral politics. It doesn't "simply join in on wars on whatever sid…

There are exceptions to any saying. I would still be curious to hear exactly what yaix was trying to say. Your assertions don't necessarily cast any light on what they had in mind.

'exceptions to any saying'?

What I'm pointing out is that it's not the guns that make the society polite. Sub-saharan africa is a vast conglomeration of countries and tribal societies, bigger than the US and Europe combined, and there you are calling it an 'exception'.

And nice job dodging someone trying to help you be less 'baffled'.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#136

Post by eliasmacpherson » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:41 PM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

So in the midst of a global recession you are advocating military expansion to increase birthrates even as resources are dwindling. There has been no greater self destruction in recorded history than the second world war, and that's what results from what you advocate. Conveniently, you fail to mention any of the self destructed nations. God awful.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#137

Post by Alex3917 » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:59 PM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

"its consequences will be exacerbated by the sex-selective abortion practised for a generation there."

Or, more likely, it's part of the cause. Maybe women in Asia are delaying marriage in part because they have more leverage, similarly to the black men in the U.S. who aren't in prison.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#138

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 12:59 PM UTC

usaar333 wrote: post #131

yummyfajitas wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how your policy recommendation relates to your initial observation (gender equality -> fertility). How does forcing the childless (note: people of both genders can be childless) to subsidize parents promote gender equality? (I'm not disagreeing with your suggesting that you can subsidize something to get more of it, I'm just trying to figure out how your last paragraph relates to the rest of your post.)

I may have made that jump too quick. First note that the childless already massively subsidize parents through taxes that pay for education. Also note that I am considering replacement levels of fertility desirable. The cost of being a mother, biologically, is vastly higher than being a father. This is further enhanced by cultural expectations for the mother to do most of the child raising. In other words, female par…

Ok, so by "gender equality", you merely mean "statistically similar representation of women in assorted reference classes" rather than "equal treatment". (The latter is what I originally thought you meant.)

Of course, I'd be rather hard pressed to see what that has to do with fertility. I'd suggest maybe that there is a simpler explanation for the phenomenon you observed - the countries with gender equality also seem to have lots of subsidies for parenthood. Most likely the subsidies are the cause of fertility.

If the subsidies are the actual cause, we could probably get higher fertility by subsidizing parenthood together with higher societal expectations of maternal activities from women. The carrot of free money for the fertile life path, and the stick of lower social status for the less fertile path.

(Not that I advocate this course of action, but I'm not in favor of encouraging fertility in any case.)

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#139

Post by peteretep » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 1:02 PM UTC

> in Bangkok, 20% of 40-44-year old women are not married

In Bangkok, 20% of the women you see in couple on streets are part of a woman-woman couple, holding hands - usually one with short hair and a shirt, and one with long hair and a dress - something I've never seen as prevalent anywhere else in the world, and something the locals don't look twice at.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#140

Post by jonnathanson » Sat, Aug 20, 2011, 1:03 PM UTC

Meai wrote: post #72

lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

You come up with only a single, high level reason for what could have thousands of reasons, and you seriously come up with one that is a detriment to our entire species. Draw from that conclusions on your capacity and will for logical thinking, sorry this has to be blunt. You are the modern day crusader. You get an idea in your head with next to no logical reasons and then start to proselytize everyone around you. I'…

"there are no marriages, because marriages are nowadays too fast and detrimental for male parties. What we need, is actual equality between the genders."

I'm not sure I follow this logic. By all indications in both the East and West, it's women, not men, who are driving the changes in marriage rates, ages, and trends.

1) Women are entering and succeeding in the workforce, and accordingly, they see less reason to give that all up for traditional marriages and gender roles.

2) Men outnumber women in many Asian countries (especially China, for obvious reasons). Ergo, the women in these countries can afford to be choosey. It's a buyer's market, and they are the buyers. With the power dynamic in the meat market shifted in their favor, they can be more selective and take their time. Unfortunately, they can't wait too long, because eventually, they'll lose out to younger women entering the same market -- and, when that happens, many will have forfeited their marriage prospects altogether.

[For what it's worth, I am a proponent of gender equality. Please don't misconstrue me there. I am not passing judgment on any of these trends, but rather, am simply observing them.]