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Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

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Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#101

Post by vimacs2 »

hutzlibu wrote: post #86
winstonewert wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where can I read more about this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_Internat... "In 2002, the U.S. Congress passed the American Service-Members' Protection Act (ASPA), which contained a number of provisions, including authorization of the President to "use all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Cou…

As if anyone needed even more incentive to execute war criminals like pigs in a slaughter house.

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#102

Post by zmix »

wutbrodo wrote: post #56
zmix wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany, the concept of "Public Domain" does not exist. (EDIT: It may exist 70 years after the authors death). IANAL. Besides that, even if it would, the books would not have been in the Public Domain. From the announcement: > In Germany, they are copyrighted based on "life +70 years" of copyright protection (so, copyright will expire after 2020, 2025 and 2027, respectively). From a legal and business perspective,…

> From a legal and business perspective, neither German legislation nor the Fischer Verlag are at fault here. It's just the way it is (in Germany): Creators hold their intellectual property for life and can make sure, their heir profits from the work of the (grand)parents, as well (+70 years after death of copyright holder). I don't follow. Aren't you describing German legislation's choice to have extremely long copy…

I consider them long copyright periods, but not extremely long. I can tolerate life+70 years. Though, I'd prefer them, ideally, to be life+25 years and, considering life ain't ideal, life + 50. But I can live with life+70. But not more.

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#103

Post by orra »

pgeorgi wrote: post #44
orra wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know Germany doesn't do legal precedent, but is there actually any case law demonstrating works can't be put into the public domain? The idea it can't be done is a trope at this point, but I am frankly skeptical. Moral rights to recognition aside, copyright can be sold, like any other property. Why do we think it can't be abandoned, again like any other property?

§42 UrhG ( https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/urhg/__42.html , english translation https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_urhg/englisch_ur... ) is probably core to what an author can do about their personality rights in relation to their works: --- Section 42 Right of revocation for changed conviction (1) The author may revoke a right of use vis-à-vis the rightholder if the work no longer reflects his conviction…

Thanks for the detailed answer.

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#104

Post by nybble41 »

Archelaos wrote: post #72
mannerheim wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would American copyright law apply in Germany? It doesn't. Project Gutenberg is an American entity, and operated entirely in the US. This is like asking why should American free speech laws apply in Thailand in regards to Thailand enforcing lèse-majesté laws on an American website.

> and operated entirely in the US. The problem is that it sent copyrighted files to Germany (outside the U.S.). The court order only demands to stop this. I doubt that the order is enforcible on U.S. soil. But if individuals associated with an uncomplying organization set foot in or have assets in a territory where the order could be enforced, they risk real consequences.

It is unreasonable that an individual who is neither a German citizen nor within German territory would later be subject to "real consequences" from the German legal system for actions which were perfectly legal in the time and place where they were performed. Even if they do later travel to Germany. This concept of extraterritorial jurisdiction needs to stop before we end up with a dystopia where either (a) no one can travel anywhere for fear of arrest based on something they did legally elsewhere, or (b) everyone is forced to comply with every law in every global jurisdiction at all times (even the conflicting ones which are impossible to satisfy) no matter where they happen to be or what the local laws may permit.

Even if Germany should decide to be unreasonable and claim global jurisdiction, it should either bar the offending individuals from entering altogether or grant them immunity under German law during their stay for anything done outside the country beforehand. Knowingly inviting someone in only to prosecute them would be a gross violation of the basic principles of hospitality.

If Germany doesn't want certain data coming in to their country they are welcome to erect a firewall at their border, at their own expense, to prevent their own residents from accessing it. Of course that still infringes the natural rights of the German residents, but that is an internal matter between the German government and those living there, who presumably would be permitted to leave if they so desired. It is not the place of non-German server operators to enforce German censorship laws, including but not limited to copyright.

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#105

Post by nybble41 »

germanier wrote: post #87
thayne wrote: post #81

> Q: So the court thinks that the presence of content in German means that courts in Germany have jurisdiction, regardless of the fact that PGLAF is entirely in the US? > A: Yes, that was the original basis of the claim for jurisdiction, which the Court accepted in their judgment. ummm, what? Imagine if the UK, or US claimed jurisdiction over any website that published content in English.

That's only half the story. The court based it on the following facts: * The website was accessible from Germany * The website was partly translated into German * The website offered German-language content * The explicitly offered worldwide service ("anyone anywhere") * There was a disclaimer directed at people not located in the US

And German-language content can only be directed at German citizens or residents? There are five other countries which have German as their official language, and many more where German is spoken. It's ridiculous that the court would consider this sufficient to grant them jurisdiction.

> The website was accessible from Germany

That's something Germany could control much more easily on its own by putting firewalls at their borders. There is no reason for the site to go out of its way to block access from Germany, even assuming that they could do so reliably, which they can't.

> The explicitly offered worldwide service ("anyone anywhere")

Just like most web sites are available to "anyone anywhere". That's how the Internet is meant to work.

> There was a disclaimer directed at people not located in the US

Which is a very large group of people, most of whom are not in or from Germany. They're seriously complaining that the site reminded people that they need to take their own local laws into account before importing content from elsewhere?

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#106

Post by germanier »

nybble41 wrote: post #105
germanier wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only half the story. The court based it on the following facts: * The website was accessible from Germany * The website was partly translated into German * The website offered German-language content * The explicitly offered worldwide service ("anyone anywhere") * There was a disclaimer directed at people not located in the US

And German-language content can only be directed at German citizens or residents? There are five other countries which have German as their official language, and many more where German is spoken. It's ridiculous that the court would consider this sufficient to grant them jurisdiction. > The website was accessible from Germany That's something Germany could control much more easily on its own by putting firewalls at…

I'm not taking a stance, I just try to represent the argument fairly - whether one actually agrees is another thing. Misrepresenting arguments as the PGLAF does is lazy.

According to German legal rules you always have to take an overall view into account, not only to each argument on its own. In this case, whether they intended to also(!) reach German users.

Anyway, 2016 the highest German civil court ruled in accordance to precedence from the European Court of Justice that copyright infringement on websites fall under German jurisdiction as long as 1) the website is accessible from Germany without circumventing any blocks 2) it's infringing according to German law. Showing that the website operator actually intends to reach German users is no longer necessary.

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#107

Post by robin_reala »

revolvingocelot wrote: post #46
earthboundkid wrote: post #42

It's too bad that PG is totally reader hostile. :-P It could be a great source for the readers of the world. Instead it's a bunch of unreadable text files that give "entrepreneurs" the raw material they need to put out a bunch of $1 ebooks.

PG's goal is the digitization and long-term storage of public-domain written materials, and I'm glad that's all they're doing. I think you're looking for Standard Ebooks [0][1], which utilizes (usually) Project Gutenberg-sourced text, original-edition illustrations, and volunteer editors to create professional, free-as-in-beer ebooks. [0] https://standardebooks.org/ [1] I tend to write, or only ever see, "eBooks", bu…

Free-as-in-speech as well: each publication including SE additions like the blurb is put back into the public domain.

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#108

Post by earthboundkid »

earthboundkid wrote: post #42

It's too bad that PG is totally reader hostile. :-P It could be a great source for the readers of the world. Instead it's a bunch of unreadable text files that give "entrepreneurs" the raw material they need to put out a bunch of $1 ebooks.

Lots of bizarre defenses of PG here. Look at it this way: every single person you meet has heard the phrase “Wikipedia” and probably all but the least curious have used it. How many have heard of Project Gutenberg? And why not? Are public domain books unpopular? (No, schools assign tons of public domain books in English class.) Okay, so what’s going on? Answer: Project Gutenberg has decided that making the books readable is not their job. Well okay whatever, it’s their project, but the result is a total failure to be what it could and should be: a peer to Wikipedia and a household name.

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#110

Post by thayne »

germanier wrote: post #106
nybble41 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And German-language content can only be directed at German citizens or residents? There are five other countries which have German as their official language, and many more where German is spoken. It's ridiculous that the court would consider this sufficient to grant them jurisdiction. > The website was accessible from Germany That's something Germany could control much more easily on its own by putting firewalls at…

I'm not taking a stance, I just try to represent the argument fairly - whether one actually agrees is another thing. Misrepresenting arguments as the PGLAF does is lazy. According to German legal rules you always have to take an overall view into account, not only to each argument on its own. In this case, whether they intended to also(!) reach German users. Anyway, 2016 the highest German civil court ruled in accord…

That sort of ruling reinforces the dominance of large megacorporations on the internet. A big company like Google or Amazon might be able afford to keep track of laws like that in every country, or at least countries with enough international influence, but a donation backed site like Gutenberg probably doesn't, much less a website run by a single individual.
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