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Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

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Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#81
post #67

I am married to a Japanese and live here right now, so I can only comment on the situation of the country. I will try to give an economical assessment of the situation. As you might be aware Japan had a “lost decade” during the 90s. It experienced almost no growth of the GDP. There are many theories as to why, but the most convincing one is: The Japanese “Baby Boomers” retired during this decade. In fact the percenta…

Can you elaborate on this "mandatory elderly tax"? I've never heard of such a thing.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#82

Good for them. More people need to reject this archaic sexist tradition. Legal enforcement of the fantasy notion of "true love for life" is damn near barbaric. If you and your partner can swing it, more power to you, but social pressure on others to place themselves into legally binding situations revolving around this notion is something that need to die. In the west (at least the states) these are legally binding a…

I think "true love for life" is a very american possibly western fairy tale. In asia it's more like "a partnership in the ups and downs of life" and is centered on creating a solid foundation to raise a happy and prosperous family.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I understand your point, but according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population It only took a decade to go from 6 to 7 billion. We can build up a population in the blink of an eye. 2) Do parents have children to bring more tax payers into the world? :) Ponzi scheme or not, people taking the time to establish themselves first means fewer children, but also fewer neglected children.

Do parents have children to bring more tax payers into the world? :) You say it like it's a silly idea, but not long ago people in America had children expressly for the purpose of helping around the farm, and in Asian cultures there is still an explicit overtone that parents have children so that they have someone to depend upon in old age. And by 'explicit overtone', I mean your parents say it to your face and you…

Agreed, in asia a family unit is not just parents and their children. It involves, grandparents, and great grandparents if they are around. It's not a "you have to take care of me" kind of a deal but something like "family takes care of itself" -> when you have kids, grandparents help out actively in raising them, then you are adults you help your parents, physicall, financially. Families often have assets stowed away as a collective unit.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#84
post #77
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You come up with only a single, high level reason for what could have thousands of reasons, and you seriously come up with one that is a detriment to our entire species. Draw from that conclusions on your capacity and will for logical thinking, sorry this has to be blunt. You are the modern day crusader. You get an idea in your head with next to no logical reasons and then start to proselytize everyone around you. I'…

[deleted]

Never more quickly have I realized that there is no point in discussion. There are too many things I'd need to explain to make this anywhere near worthwhile. I'll just point out a few things and then I'll be on my way. This is nowhere near enough to explain everything to you, but I feel the need to give you a few more pointers.

First of all, it would be common courtesy in any fruitful discussion that if you require me to provide evidence or some sort of logical construct supporting my theory, that you would do the same for yours first.

Secondly, you make the mistake of thinking life is easy. It's a really healthy attitude, and it is certainly born out of real life experiences, but the unfortunate truth is, that it's not easy. It's terribly complicated, and everything has so many reasons that it makes it pointless to try to enumerate them. I only ask that you don't restrict yourself to a single reason, like you did in your post. I only ask that you recognise that life is not easy, and that discussions are not easy and that you can't possibly ever understand a problem fully.

Your simple request for evidence to reject equality of gender as a requirement for peaceful societies is not simple to answer. This question is really a symptom of what I pointed out before. Your question would require extensive research into gender history, statistical analysis of marriage data, sexual encounters, the change of laws over history, how governments evolved under different societies, how governments treated genders, how that affected them, and many more personal assessments like how equality is historically always fought for and therefore it would be a pointless battle to reject it in the long run, ...the list is endless.

I hope you can now see that discussion is pointless. What we are all left with is the belief that we can achieve stable peace, that we can achieve gender equality and at the same time maintain a thriving society. This is what I want, and therefore I try to find theories to support that. Do not take that as naivety. Many will, but only people who have thought this through will agree that all their facts are in essence belief. You are doing the same thing, but labeling it differently. It's like the chicken or egg problem. What came first, your belief or the fact? In order to form any sort of belief, you need facts. In order to find facts, you need some beliefs first.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#85
post #67

I am married to a Japanese and live here right now, so I can only comment on the situation of the country. I will try to give an economical assessment of the situation. As you might be aware Japan had a “lost decade” during the 90s. It experienced almost no growth of the GDP. There are many theories as to why, but the most convincing one is: The Japanese “Baby Boomers” retired during this decade. In fact the percenta…

Can you elaborate on this "mandatory elderly tax"? I've never heard of such a thing.

I choose to mention the nickname Japanese have for this tax. Really it is the municipal-tax which is either 7% (I think) of the income, or minimum of 180 USD/month (in my area, in Tokyo it is higher). The tax is used for the local infrastructure, but has risen dramatically in the past years to cover the costs of pensions. Therefor it got the nickname "elderly tax".

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#87
post #67

I am married to a Japanese and live here right now, so I can only comment on the situation of the country. I will try to give an economical assessment of the situation. As you might be aware Japan had a “lost decade” during the 90s. It experienced almost no growth of the GDP. There are many theories as to why, but the most convincing one is: The Japanese “Baby Boomers” retired during this decade. In fact the percenta…

I'm curious about the problems that Japanese women have when marrying foreigners stemming from the women expecting a loveless marriage. Could you elaborate? I am assuming that you are not Japanese from your opening sentence. Have you encountered these problems in your marriage?

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#88
post #84
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Never more quickly have I realized that there is no point in discussion. There are too many things I'd need to explain to make this anywhere near worthwhile. I'll just point out a few things and then I'll be on my way. This is nowhere near enough to explain everything to you, but I feel the need to give you a few more pointers. First of all, it would be common courtesy in any fruitful discussion that if you require m…

>This is what I want, and therefore I try to find theories to support that.

It is easy to find theories to support anything you want, look at all religions and other pre-scientific belief systems. It is facing reality, whether or not it supports your beliefs, that is hard. And that is something only modern, Western-derived civilizations have ever even come close to achieving.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#89

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

Interesting idea. I'd love to hear more about the birth rate numbers historically. I wasn't aware that any large societies experienced sub-replacement fertility levels until the late 20th century, which are typically attributed to the empowerment of women (education, entering workforce, legal equality, etc.), huge reduction in infant mortality, and strong economies/social safety nets.

I don't have source handy, but I remember reading that the middle and upper classes had sub-replacement fertility in the late Roman Empire. You need to investigate differences within societies too. In pre-modern times there was a much more significant break, both culturally and militarily, between the upper (and middle where they existed) and the lower classes (which were often effectively slaves, even if not called that).

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#90
post #87
post #67

I am married to a Japanese and live here right now, so I can only comment on the situation of the country. I will try to give an economical assessment of the situation. As you might be aware Japan had a “lost decade” during the 90s. It experienced almost no growth of the GDP. There are many theories as to why, but the most convincing one is: The Japanese “Baby Boomers” retired during this decade. In fact the percenta…

I'm curious about the problems that Japanese women have when marrying foreigners stemming from the women expecting a loveless marriage. Could you elaborate? I am assuming that you are not Japanese from your opening sentence. Have you encountered these problems in your marriage?

Your assumption is correct, I am European.

I don’t feel comfortable to discuss private things in public, but I will state some facts. In my social circle there were 8 marriages between Japanese (all women) and foreigners. 4 ended in the past 3 years and were mainly attributed to different expectations of intimacy. The article http://goo.gl/QlAfx gives a very good description. I am unable to find a reputable source, but if you search for the frequency of intercourse, Japan will always be the lowest on the list. Japanese simply don’t want / need to have sex. Furthermore mentioning that you “love” someone is very uncommon. Frequent physical contact (e.g. hugging) with spouses / kids is not expected. It is a different culture.

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