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Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

economist.com

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Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#71

Post by JeffL »

sliverstorm wrote: post #63
ippisl wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that today, it's hard to learn from history about such things because of some disruptive changes that happen to war and politics. 1. Democracy According to the democratic peace theory[1], two stable , long term democracies, rarely or never go to war between them. 2. Nuclear weapons The threat of nuclear weapons does change the rules of war substantially. I can't see a peaceful nation, that has nuclear weapons…

I can't see a peaceful nation, that has nuclear weapons , totally conquered by an enemy Then we are doomed to conquer ourselves. Or at least, be totally conquered in the economic sector. I don't think we can use nuclear warheads to settle China's stake in the US, lest we receive a serious credit downgrade from S&P. P.S. It's funny because it's true.

Well, what's China going to do as we print our way out of our debt to them? If they get bellicose, then our nukes will come in handy. If they sit there and take what will essentially be a default on our debt via printing, then will be be conquered by them economically?

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#72

Post by Meai »

lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

You come up with only a single, high level reason for what could have thousands of reasons, and you seriously come up with one that is a detriment to our entire species. Draw from that conclusions on your capacity and will for logical thinking, sorry this has to be blunt. You are the modern day crusader. You get an idea in your head with next to no logical reasons and then start to proselytize everyone around you.

I'll give you another just as likely reason for past societal collapses (frankly, a lot likelier reason), and you can then fill in more if you are able. In times of peace, leaders have no dire motivation to mold their citizens into specific paths that are catalyst for military purposes. This leads to societes that are directionless. Historically, only military societies prevailed because they had direction and motivation to improve. However, what's so bad about being directionless? What exactly causes the downfall of "peaceful" (=actually just directionless) societies? We have to dig a little deeper. You jumped the gun and proclaimed it was peace itself that was doing the damage. That sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Peace itself has millions of little and big effects on society. Among these effects is the loss of need for children, therefore inevitably marriage laws get relaxed. Humans want to have sex a lot and with many other people, and marriage gets in the way of that. In peaceful times we have seen a gradual destruction of marital laws. This leads to marriages which can be formed and destroyed at the whim of any person, and in our society today, it's even worse because women are considerably favored in the break-up. This leads to people being very cautious to form deep bonds, and this ultimately leads to a weaker society, a society devoid of the ultimate motivation for every human being: Providing and protecting your family. It's like taking away one of the primary engines of a spaceship. There is still other engines that powers it: Need for food. Need for sex. However the strongest one, the motivation to protect your own children is gone. Because there are no children, because there are no marriages, because marriages are nowadays too fast and detrimental for male parties. What we need, is actual equality between the genders.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#73

Post by pagekalisedown »

sliverstorm wrote: post #45
pagekalisedown wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love children, but as a specie, we've secured our dominant position on this planet a long time ago. There's over 7 billion of us now. If children isn't your thing, why bring some into the world, and risk neglecting them?

The main problems are these: 1) Due to social values, we build momentum. If marriage ceases to happen and children cease to be born, 50 years from now we won't have 50 million fewer people- we'll have 1 billion fewer people, and it will take decades to reverse the trend. (made-up numbers, but I hope you take my point) 2) It's not just about protecting the species. We have a tiny bit of a Ponzi scheme going. The young…

1) I understand your point, but according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

It only took a decade to go from 6 to 7 billion. We can build up a population in the blink of an eye.

2) Do parents have children to bring more tax payers into the world? :) Ponzi scheme or not, people taking the time to establish themselves first means fewer children, but also fewer neglected children.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#74

Post by sliverstorm »

JeffL wrote: post #71
sliverstorm wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see a peaceful nation, that has nuclear weapons , totally conquered by an enemy Then we are doomed to conquer ourselves. Or at least, be totally conquered in the economic sector. I don't think we can use nuclear warheads to settle China's stake in the US, lest we receive a serious credit downgrade from S&P. P.S. It's funny because it's true.

Well, what's China going to do as we print our way out of our debt to them? If they get bellicose, then our nukes will come in handy. If they sit there and take what will essentially be a default on our debt via printing, then will be be conquered by them economically?

What will happen is no other country will invest in us again, and considering our addiction to debt, we will run into some... problems.

Heck, if we inflate our currency aggressively enough, other countries could wind up simply not accepting our money. It's hard to imagine today, but it's a real possibility- the value and purchasing power of your money is entirely rooted in everyone else's confidence in it's stability.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#75

Post by yummyfajitas »

notahacker wrote: post #9
bennesvig wrote: post #6

George Gilder's "Naked Nomad's" is a great book studying single men in America. Unmarried men own the majority of bad statistical categories to be in. Higher death, suicide, crime, and disease rates. No society wants that burden.

On a crude statistical basis children born out of wedlock don't fare too well either, yet the Economist article paints them as some kind of Western demographic advantage. I haven't read the book so I wouldn't know whether the Gilder successfully separates cause from effect when examining unmarried men, but extrapolating his conclusions to Asia may be difficult anyway. On the one hand it may be rather more socially un…

On a crude statistical basis children born out of wedlock don't fare too well either,...

True, but the crude statistical basis fails to account for wealth (and to a lesser extent race). In the US, marriage is for rich people. Since the children of rich people fare well in general, the bias here is obvious.

I'd love to see stats comparing children born out of wedlock holding income and race fixed.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#76

Post by sliverstorm »

pagekalisedown wrote: post #73
sliverstorm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problems are these: 1) Due to social values, we build momentum. If marriage ceases to happen and children cease to be born, 50 years from now we won't have 50 million fewer people- we'll have 1 billion fewer people, and it will take decades to reverse the trend. (made-up numbers, but I hope you take my point) 2) It's not just about protecting the species. We have a tiny bit of a Ponzi scheme going. The young…

1) I understand your point, but according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population It only took a decade to go from 6 to 7 billion. We can build up a population in the blink of an eye. 2) Do parents have children to bring more tax payers into the world? :) Ponzi scheme or not, people taking the time to establish themselves first means fewer children, but also fewer neglected children.

Do parents have children to bring more tax payers into the world? :)

You say it like it's a silly idea, but not long ago people in America had children expressly for the purpose of helping around the farm, and in Asian cultures there is still an explicit overtone that parents have children so that they have someone to depend upon in old age.

And by 'explicit overtone', I mean your parents say it to your face and you become a social pariah if you abandon your family- at least as best I understand it from my Asian friends.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#77

Post by [deleted] »

Meai wrote: post #72
lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

You come up with only a single, high level reason for what could have thousands of reasons, and you seriously come up with one that is a detriment to our entire species. Draw from that conclusions on your capacity and will for logical thinking, sorry this has to be blunt. You are the modern day crusader. You get an idea in your head with next to no logical reasons and then start to proselytize everyone around you. I'…

[deleted]

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#78

Post by kiiski »

Meai wrote: post #72
lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

You come up with only a single, high level reason for what could have thousands of reasons, and you seriously come up with one that is a detriment to our entire species. Draw from that conclusions on your capacity and will for logical thinking, sorry this has to be blunt. You are the modern day crusader. You get an idea in your head with next to no logical reasons and then start to proselytize everyone around you. I'…

Unless I misread something, you didn't actually deny that peace was the ultimate cause of the problems.

"Detriment to our entire species" is also far from proven. This far mankind has done pretty well even with all the wars. While it's certainly unfortunate for the ones actually involved in the war, it might be better for "the greater good". Or maybe it isn't. The point is that you shouldn't dismiss an argument just because it's politically incorrect nowadays.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#79

Post by bored »

lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

In other words, when women have more economic freedom.

Re: Women are rejecting marriage in Asia. The social implications are serious.

#80

Post by intended »

lionhearted wrote: post #44

I have a theory that I haven't found expounded before. It came from a combination of travel through 60+ countries, living and working and interacting with local people on a pretty intimate level sometimes, and study of lots of history. It's going to be controversial and maybe even shocking, so brace yourself for a moment before reacting please. I think peaceful societies self-destruct. With a few notable exceptions t…

So what exactly have you seen that makes you lead to this conclusion?

The theory you have can be noticed by other travellers and students of history; so I would have to ask: what have you observed and analyzed that led you to this conclusion?

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