Overcoming Bias: ‘The Profit’ Socialism Challenge • Hacker News Board

Re: Overcoming Bias: ‘The Profit’ Socialism Challenge

#11

Post by cscurmudgeon » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

jancsika wrote: post #9

> It is the capital that Marcus has to offer that makes business owners listen to him It would be fun to take on the challenge of converting the author to socialism, but I'm not sure if the author is making the call at the end of the article in good faith. Related to what I quoted-- many, perhaps the majority, of reality shows don't rely on offers of capital injections to improve the social problems that plague busin…

> converting the author to socialism

Only religions need converting. The rest should use logic-based arguments.

Conversion talk springs up only when there is a lack of logic or rationality.

Re: Overcoming Bias: ‘The Profit’ Socialism Challenge

#12

Post by merpnderp » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

malwarebytess wrote: post #8

quantified wrote: post #2

Capitalism vs socialism isn’t about the existence of that capital, just who owns and how decisions are made. In all the cases of the mismanaged businesses, they were being mismanaged under capitalism and a new manager came in, was competent and was heeded. I guess the premise here is that “capitalism better because competent managers rarer than incompetent managers” and “incentives of money alone are better than ince…

> Authoritarian “people’s republic of X”-style didn’t provide good outcomes. Except, you know, China.

Only after near total free market reforms.

Re: Overcoming Bias: ‘The Profit’ Socialism Challenge

#13

Post by throwawaysea » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC

malwarebytess wrote: post #8

quantified wrote: post #2

Capitalism vs socialism isn’t about the existence of that capital, just who owns and how decisions are made. In all the cases of the mismanaged businesses, they were being mismanaged under capitalism and a new manager came in, was competent and was heeded. I guess the premise here is that “capitalism better because competent managers rarer than incompetent managers” and “incentives of money alone are better than ince…

> Authoritarian “people’s republic of X”-style didn’t provide good outcomes. Except, you know, China.

It’s arguable whether China actually benefited from an authoritarian, centralized economic model or from other factors. They did open up their society to market economic forces, both domestic and international, although they do seem to be ready to pull the rug out from people at a moment’s notice - for example with banning some foreign company or with blocking IPOs or disappearing business leaders. Another factor is the literal theft of intellectual property through corporate espionage or hacking, as well as the theft of IP through business relationships (for instance with European high speed rail manufacturers). I do think China’s leadership, particularly Xi Jinping, still have an eye on implementing an idealistic socialist/communist system as an end goal, but it does seem like all the steps to get there involve anything but that.

Re: Overcoming Bias: ‘The Profit’ Socialism Challenge

#14

Post by frebdo » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

More reactionary garbage.

Re: Overcoming Bias: ‘The Profit’ Socialism Challenge

#15

Post by a_shovel » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

The author lists some proposed socialist solutions that he has heard of, and then dismisses them with a simple, unexplained "I just can’t see those processes going well".

If he won't tell us his problems with those explanations, how could someone address them?

Apart from that, the rest of the article is just a description of a TV show, the challenge itself, and praise for capitalism. Very shallow IMO.

Re: Overcoming Bias: ‘The Profit’ Socialism Challenge

#16

Post by bobcostas55 » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

quantified wrote: post #2

Capitalism vs socialism isn’t about the existence of that capital, just who owns and how decisions are made. In all the cases of the mismanaged businesses, they were being mismanaged under capitalism and a new manager came in, was competent and was heeded. I guess the premise here is that “capitalism better because competent managers rarer than incompetent managers” and “incentives of money alone are better than ince…

>Capitalism vs socialism isn’t about the existence of that capital, just who owns and how decisions are made.

You can't just assume the existence of capital. It's not an exogenous variable.

Re: Overcoming Bias: ‘The Profit’ Socialism Challenge

#17

Post by kaibee » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 9:36 PM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #10

malwarebytess wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Authoritarian “people’s republic of X”-style didn’t provide good outcomes. Except, you know, China.

China did well after adopting a capitalist economic model. Not so well after adopting a communist economic model. Over 50 million dying just from starvation is basically the worst you can possibly be. Insane top down command like killing all the sparrows or collectivizing farms, or pulling nails out of furniture so that little villages can make steel describes the insanity of that approach. It had a shelf life of abo…

Tbh, I have no idea who 'on the left' you could be talking about (except Sinema I guess)? The labor side of the Democratic party has been enemic for the last 50 years.

Re: Overcoming Bias: ‘The Profit’ Socialism Challenge

#18

Post by mensetmanusman » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #11

jancsika wrote: post #9

> It is the capital that Marcus has to offer that makes business owners listen to him It would be fun to take on the challenge of converting the author to socialism, but I'm not sure if the author is making the call at the end of the article in good faith. Related to what I quoted-- many, perhaps the majority, of reality shows don't rely on offers of capital injections to improve the social problems that plague busin…

> converting the author to socialism Only religions need converting. The rest should use logic-based arguments. Conversion talk springs up only when there is a lack of logic or rationality.

Politics is preference, logic is sometimes useful in determining your preference…

Re: Overcoming Bias: ‘The Profit’ Socialism Challenge

#19

Post by viburnum » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

The Hungarian economist János Kornai wrote about this. Socialist firms face what he called a soft budget constraint (In this case the soft budget constraint isn’t provided by the central government but by sentimental families). The problems are well understood but they have some advantages. It’s easy to end unemployment. Japan used something like a soft budget constraint during its postwar boom so its domestic firms could massively invest more in innovation and scale up production. Socialists in Sweden were also similarly concerned with efficiency issues as early as the 1920s, which is why they chose to focus on the welfare state and labor rights instead.

The flip side is a hard budget constraint leaves resources idle — unemployment. So you get a different kind of inefficiency. Mixed economies direct which inefficiencies they can live with based on actual human needs.

Re: Overcoming Bias: ‘The Profit’ Socialism Challenge

#20

Post by g42gregory » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

> I’ve heard that, under socialism, workers would vote on who they want to be managers...

I grew up under socialism and wanted to mention that author "heard" very, very wrong. Under socialism, the Party bosses will decide who will be the managers. The person's qualifications and achievements will be largely taken into consideration, together with their loyalty to the Party, who their parents are, friends in high places who vouched for them, favors that need to be returned, etc... Not that much different from the capitalism.

The process author describes, is what happens when you are thinking to become a socialist society. Everything looks fantastic then. But actual socialism comes with removal of democratic safeguards and somewhat totalitarian government (how else would you confiscate private property from citizens?).

Once the new, socialist, management is in place, they quickly realize that it's nice to be at the top. Next, they turn their attention to the authors like this (who threaten their permanent place at the top) and quickly "dispose" of them. There is a sweet irony in this process, but it is of little consolation for the rest of the population, who will suffer for the next 70 yrs until the country goes back to the capitalism.