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Truths about video game stories

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Re: Truths about video game stories

#281
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me the witcher 3 had the feature of collectible women cards from sex as a game mechanic, which really takes away from the notion of a deep or compelling story.

If it's the Gwent mini game you are talking about afaik you have to defeat certain NPCs in a card game to get the cards that you are talking about. Also there are a lot of charecter cards not just women. Not to mention the fact that playing Gwent is completely optional in the game

[deleted]

Re: Truths about video game stories

#282

Nothing beats The Last of Us story for me (it’s why it became PlayStation game of the decade). The Last of Us Part II spoils you even further, there isn’t anything else close to the level of detail and story telling that Naugthy Dog has done here. “It’s a rollercoaster thrill ride which lasts like 20 hours and leaves you scarred for the rest of your days. 10/10” FYI HBO and creators of Chernobyl have picked up The La…

I remembered enjoying the first TLOU, but when I played the second one last year it didn't click with me. It felt like a rather long and brutal rage trip. There was story to it and very nicely produced settings, but it all felt like minor elements on this rage trip than any big changes and surprises. Actually wondering if anyone else felt that way, or whether my taste of games just changed over the last years.

Re: Truths about video game stories

#283

I'd be in the opposite camp. Video game stories are those things I have to quickly click through to get to the next bit of action. Ya, ya, ya, bla, bla, bla, click, click click, don't care. My ideal is to create my own story rather than have it spoon fed to me. Let me roll a character then let me do what I want in an interactive open world. Sure, some curating and minor direction is OK, but the less the better. I don…

Never being one to avoid shamelessly plugging my book ("book" -- see what I did there?) We played MazeWar at Xerox in the late 70s. The guy on the cover of my book is Jeffrey Smith, the son of Dave Smith, the inventor of icons. The story ("story" -- see? I did it there again) is that Dave and his wife Janet, 2 weeks overdue with Jeffrey, went to PARC to kill some time, she saw the bloody eyeball on the screen, and th…

I feel like you are providing an example.

I came to this thread to read a thread about videogame stories. Imagine my surprise (wait, this is HN), when the first thing that I see is your comment about videogames that isn't really about videogames it's a way for you to sell your book, which you admit you are shameless about.

But I just wanted to reed about videogames. If you were more subtle, if you knew how tll me a story without telling me that you are telling a story, then it's not wasting my time and I can get what I came for as well as what you want me to learn.

Re: Truths about video game stories

#284
post #252

I'd be in the opposite camp. Video game stories are those things I have to quickly click through to get to the next bit of action. Ya, ya, ya, bla, bla, bla, click, click click, don't care. My ideal is to create my own story rather than have it spoon fed to me. Let me roll a character then let me do what I want in an interactive open world. Sure, some curating and minor direction is OK, but the less the better. I don…

I'd tend to agree. I think games need to be better about "picking a camp". Many games try to force a strong narrative into an open world design, and both qualities end up faltering because of it. Examples: Mass Effect, God of War, Horizon Zero Dawn, most Ubisoft games. The best open world games tell very light narrative. They may have tons of lore to fall upon and discover, but there's otherwise very little arc to th…

Nintendo has a different core business model, one which is hard to replicate in another public corporation because it goes against the norm of making the quarterly results look as good as possible: Instead of scoring a hit and immediately trying to line up out yearly sequels, or trying to greenlight productions based on a marketing pitch alone, Nintendo typically rotates out IPs to match with prototypes and marketing concepts that have been on the go for a while. Likewise, they tend not to go the route of filling the shelves with a checklisted set of SKUs(e.g. 1 action, 1 RPG, 1 sports game per business quarter) - they will jump on some trends and occasionally dabble in clones and sequels, but their bread and butter has come from a more gradual approach of making each product focused, coherent and unique versus making it incrementally better than a competitor.

Ubisoft - and most of the publishers - can't do this because they're set up to make games that are large in scope, boast technical excellence(an ever-increasing bar) and are destined to be yearly franchises: quantities of assets and features are given precedence over coherence, which means that you get a trail of papercut discontinuities, dropped balls and lack of focus throughout the experience. Coherence has a degree of power over the game experience that is probably hundreds or thousands of times that of scope alone: it means that the software, assets and design work well together instead of creating "door problems" that dev time is spent solving. This means that a game built around a design that coheres well is automatically more polished since it never had to compromise the experience to solve problems. Nintendo regularly takes design shortcuts to this end, omitting entire categories of assets.

The true polar opposite to a Nintendo-style approach is something more like Bethesda's open world games: the game that's launched is a simulation engine with a large sandbox scenario. It may work and be playable to completion by itself, but the underlying product focus is to use it in a way supportive of tinkering, modding and exploitative gaming - to let the player bring a complicated system "off the rails". This tendency towards simulationism goes all the way back to Bethesda's origins in making stat-heavy sports sims. It makes for a less immediately digestible product, but one that can garner a devoted fanbase because it promises to give you most of the scope of a certain kind of role-playing fantasy, and then you can mod in the last little bit that will make that fantasy complete. So they don't have to worry so much about making it cohere, because the player is using it as a design tool.

Re: Truths about video game stories

#285
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're gonna have to list some pre-Half-Life games that did a better job.

Wolfestein or doom. The thing is, half life allowed exactly zero choice. So anything where you can go back or have a choice between opening left or right door is better in terms of player agency. In terms of showing rather then telling via text, almost anything has that aspect. Half life had very good graphics for the time. That is where it shined.

Half-Life has a bunch of player/story choices. Most of them small and inconsequential, I'll grant you, like the microwave incident, but Half-Life even ends on a meaningul story player choice - whether to accept the job proposal.

Wolfenstein and Doom have literally zero story choices of any kind. Not even inconsequential ones!

Clearly, Half-Life has superior story telling to Wolfenstein or Doom. Not by much, can be argued, but it clearly does. And at the time, the little bit felt like a whole lot compared to literally nothing.

Re: Truths about video game stories

#286

If I was, I'd be writing books nobody buys because nobody buys books anymore Sales of printed books have been increasing every year since 2012. Last year alone saw a jump of over eight percent.

Thanks for posting this comment, I searched for sources on this topic after reading it and was very surprised to see corroboration. Here’s a quote and few links for those interested: In the US in 2019, a high % of adults reported reading a book recently https://www.markinblog.com/book-sales-statistics/ …who is reading in the US? In October of 2019, over 80% of adults, age 18 to 29, have read at least one book in the…

Did they count only paper books? I read on average one book each month, but all are digital.

Overall I agree with the idea, people for sure haven't stopped reading books. But I'm not that sure about the paper ones.

Re: Truths about video game stories

#287

Many video games have very poor or bare plots, but amazing settings. In fact, I'm not sure that video games are actually good vehicles for plots. Video games are interactive, but all good plots require careful pacing and timing in order to be successful. It's possible to force this in a game, but the more you do, the more the game becomes an interactive movie. A great example would be Dark Souls: incredible setting,…

> In fact, I'm not sure that video games are actually good vehicles for plots. Video games are interactive, but all good plots require careful pacing and timing in order to be successful. It's possible to force this in a game, but the more you do, the more the game becomes an interactive movie.

I'm in the opposite camp. Movies are not good vehicles for plots, because the right pacing and timing is subjective. They almost always fail at storytelling, because they proceed at the same pace for everyone. The best you can do is to watch the movie alone at home. Then you can at least pause the film when you need time to think, or jump back to rewatch a section.

Cutscenes between gameplay sequences tend to make the game and the story worse. Both because they break the pacing, and because they are often used to show things that would not be possible in the game itself. The game already tells one story through gameplay, dialogue, and player choices. That story should take priority. The gameplay should be expressive enough that the writers can tell the story they want within the framework, instead of resorting to cutscenes that break the logic of the game.

Re: Truths about video game stories

#288
post #160

That's why I mostly play point&click adventure/rpg games and text adventures, because that genre can't really survive without a good story. I'm rarely disappointed and the games cost a fraction of what you would pay for a AAA title. Not that I don't like AAA, but every time I watch a gameplay video I get bored fairly quickly because I don't feel drawn to the game, it seems "same old, same old". Perhaps it's just me.…

What point and click/text adventures do you play?

This list is from my Steam library, however I haven't yet played all of them:

   - Deponia  
   - The Detail
   - State of Mind
   - Black Mirror II
   - The Dark Eye: Chains of Satinav
   - Disturbed
   - Earthshine
   - Edge of Reality
   - Edna & Harvey: Harvey's New Eyes
   - Fighting Fantasy Classics
   - The Forest of Doom
   - Jericho's Prophecies
   - Memoria
   - Mirt. Tales of the Cold Land
   - Scarlet Hollow - Episode 1
   - Agatha Christie - The ABC Murders
   - Life is Strange
   - Life is Strange: Before the Storm
   - The Lion's Song
   - Misadventures of Laura Silver
   - Omen Exitio: Plague
   - Syberia
   - Syberia II
   - Wonderlust

Re: Truths about video game stories

#289
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd tend to agree. I think games need to be better about "picking a camp". Many games try to force a strong narrative into an open world design, and both qualities end up faltering because of it. Examples: Mass Effect, God of War, Horizon Zero Dawn, most Ubisoft games. The best open world games tell very light narrative. They may have tons of lore to fall upon and discover, but there's otherwise very little arc to th…

I think this is really just a matter of subjective values. Mass Effect, God of War, and Horizon Zero Dawn are in my list of favourite games of all time. I couldn’t stand Red Dead 2 until I stopped doing the open world things and started just following the story. Breath of the Wild is cool, but it definitely hasn’t captured me like these other games have. I have never been able to stick with a Souls games, but I devou…

I wouldn't begin to assert that those games are bad; just that their decision to mesh strong cohesive narrative with open world design ends up doing a disservice to both the narrative and the open world. That doesn't mean the game as a whole is bad.

I can pull Mass Effect (lets say ME2, as its oftentimes cited as the strongest entry in the trilogy) as a nearly inassailable example of this dichotomy games are faced with (and this post does have spoilers for ME2, though not horribly big ones)

One of the biggest issues with ME2 narrative structure is a direct consequence of the open world design; the ludonarrative dissonance of talking with a crew member, being told "the ship my dad died on just started broadcasting a distress signal, ten years later, Shepherd we gotta go check it out right now", then agreeing to check it out, then waiting ten quests or 10 real world hours to go check it out. The narrative introduces urgency; the open world gives the player the agency to ignore that urgency. It would be powerful if the game recognized this, and tweaked dialog to say something like "well I would have liked to check it out sooner, but this will have to do" once you finally get around to it, but it does not; instead, it leaves us with the ludonarrative dissonance of everyone pretending like this is priority #1, has always been priority #1, even though I just spent thirty minutes in the captain's cabin trying on some new armor.

Same game: You speak with Samara, she says something like "its so refreshing to work with a crew of friends again, and to help you with your mission." Not once did I take Samara on a mission; she says this dialog no matter how often you deploy on missions with her.

Same game: Grunt is complaining about having an insatiable need to kill stuff, and his loyalty mission is to get him checked out by the Krogans. At first, I was like; woah! I also never took Grunt on any missions, not even once; is this the game reacting to him being locked up in his room all day, creating dynamic content in response to my gameplay decisions? A true integration of open world and narrative, player decisions impacting the way the story progresses in a deep and meaningful way? It isn't. He'll do that even if he's by your side for every mission killing thousands of mercenaries.

Here's the gist of it: When games try to integrate an open world with strong narrative, it is possible to do it in a fantastic and meaningful way, where the open world actually supports and builds upon the narrative. Imagine if refusing to utilize squad mates led to their desertion, which led to more missions to win them back, or spending all day side-questing leads them to ask questions about what their mission really is and why they joined.

By and large, games fail to do this, because its VERY hard. Open world games are exponential multivariadic systems; the player has a thousand things they can do at any time, trying to account for every thousand of those things, write dialog lines, record voice-over, in twenty languages... its impossibly difficult. Games which go beyond competent in this regard (and Mass Effect is FAR BEYOND competent; its VERY good) should be held up as paragons of the artform, because they attempted to integrate the thing video games do best (open-ended interactivity) with a more traditional narrative structure. But that doesn't mean sacrifices weren't made, and ultimately for me it comes down to: Mass Effect is a FANTASTIC game... but its narrative isn't.

Re: Truths about video game stories

#290
post #252

I'd be in the opposite camp. Video game stories are those things I have to quickly click through to get to the next bit of action. Ya, ya, ya, bla, bla, bla, click, click click, don't care. My ideal is to create my own story rather than have it spoon fed to me. Let me roll a character then let me do what I want in an interactive open world. Sure, some curating and minor direction is OK, but the less the better. I don…

I'd tend to agree. I think games need to be better about "picking a camp". Many games try to force a strong narrative into an open world design, and both qualities end up faltering because of it. Examples: Mass Effect, God of War, Horizon Zero Dawn, most Ubisoft games. The best open world games tell very light narrative. They may have tons of lore to fall upon and discover, but there's otherwise very little arc to th…

For someone like me who doesn't really like the passive experience of movies/TV, story-heavy games are a good thing. What Remains of Edith Finch is one of my favorite games of all time.
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