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Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

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361–370 of 419 posts

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#361

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

Not sure what work you did but working on farms was something I despised. It was terrible work and made me depressed and feel like shit.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: End “consumerism” behavior where every problem is perceived to have a solution in the form of a quick product you can buy - much of that is a psychological trick played by marketers and rarely solves the real problem. Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc. Des…

> I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: Until we had extremely advanced robotics, endless land, and infinite energy/resources, this will never become reality, even then, I have an endless amount of vanity uses of human labor/resources and I could trivially think up. By way of example, if it were the case in which money no issue for me personally, I…

This was fun to read.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of motivations to advance. Why do we research cancer cures? We use profit motives to encourage the formation of specific organizations but the reason we really care about curing cancer is that we lose loved ones that mean the world to us. Similarly, the developers of Blender are able to get paid for their work, but it seems that they choose this particular task because it interests them. If they had a…

I took a 100% pay cut to work on D. But there aren't enough people like that to run a society like that, not remotely close.

I think it depends on the society. With automation to reduce absolute labor needs and a people that prefer living in community with the basics to slaving away at a retail job, I think it can be done. People like to work and they like to help one another. We've created a system that isolates people and many of us are sick of it. We would way rather have a hot meal and the company of friends (who are not themselves stuck at some job) than slave away for hours at some retail store that jerks you around for a pittance.

I think if you could build the systems and attract some early adopters, you could prove how much better it is. Once people see it, they would fight to keep it running. They would volunteer their time to keep it going. Or they would agree to a more defined schedule and voluntarily participate in this work agreement to keep it going. The alternative is that they're forced to work for survival so I still think it could be a better deal.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#364

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

All I remember of physical labor is disappointment as rain got through my rain gear, biting wind on a cold day, unable to feel my hands, fatigue, repetitive stress aches, beating sun. Hoping for mild weather everyday. Hoping for small orders so I can fit my work in easier.

It was hard. I got paid terribly. It motivated the hell out of me to get out.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love that you are asking these questions. Indeed I think any writing meant to describe an entire economy in a few paragraphs will necessarily be a bit hand wavey. I did try to answer one of your questions: the machines are serviced by the members of the collective. In any plan for a society education must be considered. But much the same way that any halfway technical person can learn how to fix a 3D printer, these…

> I am not sure that decentralization is less efficient. So, maybe your vision of focussing on the essentials - food, shelter etc rules out microchips which definitely benefit from specialised employees, and centralised operations; but that will rules out a lot of future advances wherein microchips are embedded in everything, or at least until a suitable de-centralised equivalent is found. In the meanwhile, I'd worry…

While I do not advocate for a state-based model, I want to point out that the soviets beat the USA to orbit on a centrally planned economy. I see no reason to assume we cannot have machine tools and other high end equipment. Especially because: > open-source is parasitic to the capitalist economy

A parasite harms the host. Open source is symbiotic with the capitalist economy. I do fully expect that these machines will be built by products of the capitalist system at first. The point is that over time these people would rely less and less on the capitalist system for directly meeting their needs. Over time if this works it would behoove them to replace the entire economy they rely on with one they control. But there are first order needs like food and clothing and then there are second order needs like parts for the machine that brings them food. They can gain a lot of freedom by just covering their first order needs with machines they own.

As far as engineering, yes my examples all center around engineering because I am an engineer speaking mostly to other engineers here. But there are other people: therapists, grief counselors, teachers, doctors, librarians, carpenters, etc who would love to provide those services to friends for free if their survival was ensured.

I am imagining communities inside of the USA which simply trade with one another instead of buying from capitalist corporations. So only people who want this lifestyle would actually choose to live there. People who are super selfish and don't want to help anyone can simply keep living in the capitalist world, and see what it's like when no one cares for anyone else.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: End “consumerism” behavior where every problem is perceived to have a solution in the form of a quick product you can buy - much of that is a psychological trick played by marketers and rarely solves the real problem. Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc. Des…

> I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: Until we had extremely advanced robotics, endless land, and infinite energy/resources, this will never become reality, even then, I have an endless amount of vanity uses of human labor/resources and I could trivially think up. By way of example, if it were the case in which money no issue for me personally, I…

> Just don't suggest 'we' should do it together.

Why? Literally what is the harm in sharing my idea for a voluntary automated society and asking others what they think of it?

> Except it's not exactly voluntary if I can't own anything that would allow me to stop working altogether, I'm still stuck being a slave to the state.

You're inventing this. I never said anything about the state because my philosophy is intentionally designed not to need the state and to avoid it. I am literally saying we can and should build facilities in US cities which will produce high quality healthy meals and give them away for free. I am specifically interested in how to marshal the material support to keep something like this going without the use of a state. So that is things like, buying farmland and using the farming robot I am designing to produce large amounts of food for cheap. Or partnering with farmers who want to donate a portion of their food to the free meals program. It is like wikipedia. If it came in to existence it would be because enough people came together with the common goal to provide this service for free to everyone. If some people nearby want to get really rich, they will simply not participate. And we will still feed them!

There is always someone who hears that I want to ensure every person has a hot healthy meal and they see the ghost of Stalin himself in front of them. But feeding each other is what we have done for ages. Since before we were human. I simply want to make it more efficient.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#367
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who has tried a voluntary form of communism focused on the use of automation to lower material costs of living?

You cannot have "voluntary communism". The point of communism is to ban certain things -- e.g. make it illegal for private people to own capital. The entire definition requires that it be involuntary. In capitalism, there are worker-owned companies living side by side with privately and publicly held firms. People can go off and create their own communist utopia and share their wealth. You cannot go off and create a…

> You cannot have "voluntary communism".

> In capitalism... People can go off and create their own communist utopia and share their wealth.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who has tried a voluntary form of communism focused on the use of automation to lower material costs of living?

what happens when some people don't want to participate in your voluntary communism and insist on inventing new things and marketing them? You'll note that membership in intentional communities is quite low.

> what happens when some people don't want to participate in your voluntary communism and insist on inventing new things and marketing them?

What happens when someone decides they do not want to contribute to wikipedia?

> You'll note that membership in intentional communities is quite low.

Which is why I am designing an open source farming robot. Maybe if the work is fixing robots it will be more appealing than laboring in the fields every day. Sure is for me.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's an odd and quite uncharitable interpretation. there's not even a remote connection to (restricting) freedom of association, much less with my own hands (how would that even work?). the underlying point is that money isn't the be-all-and-end-all of what we value and what we exchange in our socioeconomic lives. money collapses a multidimensional social calculus into a single-dimensional metric, with all the unde…

The binary metric you're referring to is simply an answer to the question "are you interested in an exchange?". This question is fundamentally binary. "Consumerism" is just the interaction of private property and freedom of association - which of these would you get rid of to abolish it?

> "Consumerism" is just the interaction of private property and freedom of association

No, you have misunderstood. I am 100% for freedom of association and freedom of contract. "Consumerism" is not just exchange, it is something more specific. It is the idea that buying more is directly tied to happiness and well being. Look.

"Consumerism is the idea that increasing the consumption of goods and services purchased in the market is always a desirable goal and that a person's wellbeing and happiness depend fundamentally on obtaining consumer goods and material possessions. " https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/consumerism.asp

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#370

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

I worked as a carpenter for several years and also as a health care worker and those jobs gave me a satisfaction that my desk job can’t give me. But I saw coworkers, that worked their whole life, completely destroyed by these jobs. They seem all way older then they are. At my desk job most people are health conscious and trying to avoid the bad health effects of office jobs. Most people in the other jobs where just working and and not caring about themselves. Mostly because they where not aware or didn’t care about long time negativ heath effects.

Now I work freelance IT jobs and sometimes I work as a carpenter just for the change. But honestly if you have the possibility go for the desk job and do sports.

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