Fundamentals of Piano Practice • Hacker News Board

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#101

Post by revolvingocelot » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 4:45 AM UTC

MrGando wrote: post #84

revolvingocelot wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but agree. I've been playing piano since childhood too, though in a desultory, non-Conservatory way. It's been great fun reading through this comment section and seeing Piano HN, but I'm really surprised that this is the first comment that acknowledges the skub-nature [0] of the book, and that the author doesn't actually play piano but in fact armchair-QBs it via observation and discussion with his two d…

There's a specific thing I always remember about this book, which is that the author recommends the "thumb over" technique for scales. I would never, ever suggest a beginner to approach scales like that. Thumb rotation is super important to absorb and master. Of course, when you go for fast scales you do a "thumb over" which is not really that, but instead of the thumb rotation, you reposition your whole hand using y…

>Of course, when you go for fast scales you do a "thumb over" which is not really that, but instead of the thumb rotation, you reposition your whole hand using your arm to keep going upwards

To belabour this point for non-pianists, the parent is describing what "thumb over" really is: a sort of physical consequence of playing a fast ascending arpeggio/scale. It isn't an alternative to "thumb under" so much as a good-faith approximation of it at speed. "Practicing" "thumb over", as in this YouTube video [0], would likely threaten the mapping of fingers to keys in a newer player. It's not wrong to acknowledge its existence, but IMO it's properly conceived of as a skill that develops as a consequence of playing normally (though quickly), not an alternative to it.

Because (and in spite of) the fact that he doesn't play piano, his observations on "thumb over" are interesting, but unless you're already aware of the true nature of "thumb over" his authoritative tone will lead you astray in terms of conceptual categorization.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLTbURVEEO4

[1] https://fundamentals-of-piano-practice.readthedocs.io/chapte...

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#102

Post by packjaddison » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 4:48 AM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #33

Starting a book by singing one's praise is already dubious. Then you come across this >(...) Mental Play (...) It is almost unbelievable that such an essential skill has been mostly neglected by piano teachers. which is a top "crank red flag".

Astoundingly, I have never heard another source advise doing this, and this includes professors at Juilliard. I don't work on all my pieces using pure Mental Play as frequently as I should, but trying to 'play on phantom limbs' without being at the instrument is like trying to remember the exact details of a painting you have looked at. Though there are many parts of the book that are a bit more... cranked.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#103

Post by rossjudson » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 4:50 AM UTC

revolvingocelot wrote: post #73

tunesmith wrote: post #42

One of my favorite piano practice tricks was using one hand to teach the other. Not like how this book describes it, but using inverted patterns. In the first movement of Apposionata Op. 57, there's a pattern that goes from hand to hand, in groups of five. Difficult for the left hand. So my teacher had me learn it in the right hand too, but inverted. So in the left hand it went Db Eb G Eb Db. In the right hand that w…

Ah Apposionata! Crazy dynamics, passing one's hands over one another, a great showpiece. For those that don't play piano, the parent is essentially bragging, and is entirely justified in doing so. I feel compelled to upvote because the implication that it was successfully learned My favourite performance of it (not Lang Lang!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEptNFzLpjk

This was insanely good. Thanks! She is remarkable.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#104

Post by rectang » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 5:06 AM UTC

AlbertCory wrote: post #74

rectang wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She stopped at every mistake and "corrected" it, until you wanted to scream at her. I had a college instrumental performance professor yell at me to "sit still" because this was happening all the time at our weekly recital hour, it was driving me crazy, and I would jerk, or shake my head or hang it, or facepalm, or clench my fists. They were right to call me out because I was being rude and I toned down my reaction…

I know! It IS rude. But it's hard not to cringe. Just think "poker face."

The audience is rooting for you. They want to experience something special.

They want you to blow through glitches without drawing attention to them or even thinking about them, because that's how you bring them along in a shared, spellbinding experience.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#105

Post by tomerv » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 5:12 AM UTC

tracyhenry wrote: post #41

dandotway wrote: post #20

Does this book cover how to figure out finger numbering for sheet music that doesn't have finger numbering? By finger numbering I mean the standard scheme where thumb=1, index=2, ..., pinky=5, and the notes on the sheet music have these numbers. This is the biggest mystery to me. I understand there is not a One True Canonical Fingering for a given sequence of notes. But some fingerings make the music much easier than…

This seems to provide a solution: https://github.com/marcomusy/pianoplayer

The fingerings in the example in the readme are completely non-intuitive for me. I've played piano for a few years and never encountered such fingering. My guess is that the algorithm is optimizing for the wrong metric.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#106

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 5:13 AM UTC

the_cat_kittles wrote: post #65

andkon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm, what parts feel harder or not described above? In my experience it really is just about learning the scales and the chords, like the author mentions. Then you just have to let yourself make the connection. That can be really hard. But it’s kinda about trusting that you know the necessary parts - which notes are playable.

are you a professional jazz pianist? there is more to jazz than pitches... theres time, vocab, rhythm, tone, etc etc which are the things you work on your whole life lol. and then theres the whole issue of playing with other people

[deleted]

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#107

Post by packjaddison » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 5:37 AM UTC

MrGando wrote: post #98

rossjudson wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you should re-read. On thumb-over and thumb-under (TO, TU): "Both methods are required to play the scale but each is needed under different circumstances; TO is needed for fast, difficult passages and TU is useful for slow, legato passages, or when notes need to be held while playing other notes." "Beginners should be taught TU first because it is needed for slow passages and takes longer to learn. The TO met…

It's both the way the technique is described and the name given to it "thumb over" that are unclear and misleading. I know the technique, and in my years of practice (semi-pro) I've never seen it described anything like that. It doesn't even have a "name" per-se, because you learn to play the piano with your whole body, so it becomes a natural thing that you just have to do to get that speed. And by the way, you can…

In my head, after 'thumb-under', I think of 'skips' and 'leaps' depending on distance for whole-hand repositioning, which is descriptively accurate for fingering on the piano, guitar, and violin (etc.). Though, for the novice I could see how conceptualizing a movement this way could interfere with legato technique, as it encourages more discrete chunking than does the 'unbroken' thumb-under during a run. Does that nomenclature match your conceptualization at all?

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#108

Post by wildrhythms » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 5:43 AM UTC

alfiedotwtf wrote: post #79

cloogshicer wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main takeaways for me were: - Do not try to practice the whole piece at once. Split it into pieces - Start by listening to the piece. If possible get multiple performances/recordings (usually easy with YouTube) to get a feel for different interpretations. - Take the piece and number each measure from 1 to finish. Figure out where the repetitions are, which measures are the easiest, which the hardest (this will di…

> Do not try to practice the whole piece at once. Split it into pieces This has been my biggest ever piano hack. I now practice bar-by-bar and don't move on until I'm happy, and its taken my practice to a whole new level

This is how every piece of music was taught to me since grade 5 when I first started learning an instrument.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#109

Post by analog31 » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 5:48 AM UTC

dandotway wrote: post #20

Does this book cover how to figure out finger numbering for sheet music that doesn't have finger numbering? By finger numbering I mean the standard scheme where thumb=1, index=2, ..., pinky=5, and the notes on the sheet music have these numbers. This is the biggest mystery to me. I understand there is not a One True Canonical Fingering for a given sequence of notes. But some fingerings make the music much easier than…

I don't play piano, but double bass and cello. A challenge that I see is that a great deal of sheet music is still not available in computer readable form. So there's no data, much less labelled data. And the pace of introducing new material is painfully slow.

A problem may be that once fingering becomes intuitive, then there's no incentive to write it down, and you might not even be able to articulate why you chose a particular finger.

I only think about it when I'm trying to work out a difficult passage, and then I'm usually thinking of intervals and shifts that afford me the best chance of playing in tune. Fortunately that's not an issue on the piano, but the idea of finding an ergonomic and less mistake-prone fingering is probably a similarity.

On the other hand you might be surprised at how little it might cost to have a pianist or piano student number some music for you. At least on cello and bass music, when material has fingerings, they only need to indicate the ones that are non-obvious.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#110

Post by wildrhythms » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

arxanas wrote: post #51

This book has a lot of useful techniques regarding piano practice , but it's light on details about technique itself, such as finger positioning or how to engage which muscles. Does anyone have good resources towards this end?

A book will never teach you which muscles to engage to play an instrument. Find a piano teacher if you want to learn correct posture and exercises to prevent injuring yourself and play properly.