Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991) • Hacker News Board

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#271

Post by BingoAhoy » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:18 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #263

Chris2048 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little hand-wavey though. Who services the machines? Are the machines centralised in mass-manufacture-scales and products distributed (as they are now); or de-centralised but also less efficient (wrt manufacture and supply chain) as a result. What would the raw materials be, and how are they powered (given the carbon-crisis). I'd also ask what specifically are the essentials. Food? Shelter? ok. What about heal…

I love that you are asking these questions. Indeed I think any writing meant to describe an entire economy in a few paragraphs will necessarily be a bit hand wavey. I did try to answer one of your questions: the machines are serviced by the members of the collective. In any plan for a society education must be considered. But much the same way that any halfway technical person can learn how to fix a 3D printer, these…

I think your vision makes sense. It might not be optimal currently but as A.I., automation, and other technologies advance (Fusion fingers-crossed) I can see it becoming plausible and even desirable over the "pure-ish" capitalist economy we currently have.

Just to showcase some of the automation prototypes that makes me a hopeful believer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssZ_8cqfBlE https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/14/weedkill... https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/PlayStation-s-sec...

3-d printed homes too

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#272

Post by rhexs » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:19 PM UTC

after_care wrote: post #246

didibus wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, I think I need to be more specific, assembly line work in some factory might count as physical labor, and that might not be any better, I can't say as I've never had that job. I'm thinking more in terms of the article, construction work, farming, and the more pre-industrial kind of physical labor. For me specifically, it was construction work, bus boy, landscaping, janitorial work and military training.…

Probably the most common pre-industrial job was farmer, which is super repetitive. Imagine a task like tilling with a hoe, which would be a very repetitive and strong swinging motion.

Is your farming experience strictly from Harvest Moon?

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#273

Post by koonsolo » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:22 PM UTC

rglover wrote: post #247

When it comes to creative/mental jobs, the most productive form of work I've found is start when you're ready and work until you lose focus (forcing it is where diminishing returns kick in). Expect that to mean days where you work for 3 hours straight and days where you work for 14 straight (or days where you do 2 in the morning, stop for 3 hours, then do 3 in the evening) but don't throw a tantrum when that flexes.…

> if they just left people the hell alone (fire your managers)

A great manager is at the service of their team, and so makes sure you don't have to deal with a lot of bullshit.

But a "boss" manager is indeed a negative.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#274

Post by huffmsa » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

dan-robertson wrote: post #259

after_care wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the most common pre-industrial job was farmer, which is super repetitive. Imagine a task like tilling with a hoe, which would be a very repetitive and strong swinging motion.

It’s repetitive in the sense that one does the same thing many times but not in the sense that one does the same thing day in day out as there are many things to be done and they vary throughout the year.

Right, you're likely never going to hoe so many days in a row that you develop RSI.

The guy who did develop it is likely the guy who invented the plow

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#275

Post by TaylorAlexander » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

quin3 wrote: post #250

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure I follow? In today’s society a lot of people suffer because they are different. Disabled people for example, who would have been cared for in indigenous cultures. Yes the Iroquois supported individual rights. They just had a culture where whatever you did, you kept the needs of others in mind and did what you could to help. You were still an individual.

While true, without advancements in modern healthcare, many of the disabilities people go through life with today would result in a much earlier death. Cystic fibrosis for example is to this day incredulously expensive to treat but with a much greater life expectancy than during the heyday of the Iroquois.

I believe we can to some extent have both: a culture that supports all people and also produces high end medical equipment. The point of mentioning other cultures is to point out that human nature allows it.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#276

Post by SequoiaHope » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #260

SequoiaHope wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: End “consumerism” behavior where every problem is perceived to have a solution in the form of a quick product you can buy - much of that is a psychological trick played by marketers and rarely solves the real problem. Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc. Des…

> Anyway that’s my theory Not really. It's called communism, and it's been tried many times.

Who has tried a voluntary form of communism focused on the use of automation to lower material costs of living?

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#277

Post by lettergram » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

Ugh, alright so if you have a farm with animals it’s a 7 day a week job. I’m having trouble believing they had a shorter work week generally. Now, if we’re talking just laborers.. maybe, but the majority of people owned farms and animals in the pre-industrial world.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#278

Post by TaylorAlexander » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

BingoAhoy wrote: post #271

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love that you are asking these questions. Indeed I think any writing meant to describe an entire economy in a few paragraphs will necessarily be a bit hand wavey. I did try to answer one of your questions: the machines are serviced by the members of the collective. In any plan for a society education must be considered. But much the same way that any halfway technical person can learn how to fix a 3D printer, these…

I think your vision makes sense. It might not be optimal currently but as A.I., automation, and other technologies advance (Fusion fingers-crossed) I can see it becoming plausible and even desirable over the "pure-ish" capitalist economy we currently have. Just to showcase some of the automation prototypes that makes me a hopeful believer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssZ_8cqfBlE https://www.theguardian.com/enviro…

Thank you. I should say that critically, this scheme is not dependent on advancement in technology. It does take advantage of the fact that computers can perform labor for free, but there are examples of the elimination of hunger and equitable distribution of food without using any advanced technology. Specifically the Sikhs in India [1] serve over 1 million free meals a day in facilities all over India, and in Vienna Austria housing is built by the city and distributed equitably [2].

Advanced technology changes what is possible, but we can do this without advanced technology. 3D printed homes for example don’t really solve the problem as framing a home isn’t expensive: it’s the land and finishing the home that cost the most.

[1] https://youtu.be/qdoJroKUwu0

[2] https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_articl...

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#279

Post by tcmart14 » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:37 PM UTC

dan-robertson wrote: post #259

after_care wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the most common pre-industrial job was farmer, which is super repetitive. Imagine a task like tilling with a hoe, which would be a very repetitive and strong swinging motion.

It’s repetitive in the sense that one does the same thing many times but not in the sense that one does the same thing day in day out as there are many things to be done and they vary throughout the year.

It’s also a lot more complicated, at least now. While some tasks are repetitive, the activities rotate throughout the year. But it’s even more than that. I worked for a farmer before joining the Navy, and talking with him was interesting. Incredibly intelligent guy who I believe could have went on to do anything in world if he wanted to. Why did he settle with farming? It was his family farm, he ran his own business, but the answer that struct me even more was this, he said, “I get to wear a lot of hats. I am an engineer, those tobacco barns, I designed them. I am a mechanic, my old IH tractor breaks, I fix it. I am a business man because I make deals with local restaurants to sell my produce. I am a scientist, I work with the state university on soil studies and have a plot dedicated to running experiments with the university.” He listed some more but I can’t remember them all. The point is, for him, being a farmer let him be everything he wanted to be.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#280

Post by rsj_hn » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 10:38 PM UTC

SequoiaHope wrote: post #276

WalterBright wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyway that’s my theory Not really. It's called communism, and it's been tried many times.

Who has tried a voluntary form of communism focused on the use of automation to lower material costs of living?

You cannot have "voluntary communism". The point of communism is to ban certain things -- e.g. make it illegal for private people to own capital. The entire definition requires that it be involuntary.

In capitalism, there are worker-owned companies living side by side with privately and publicly held firms. People can go off and create their own communist utopia and share their wealth. You cannot go off and create a capitalist utopian community in a communist system.

Because capitalism doesn't ban ownership structures (except for anti-trust against monopolies). It doesn't care about the outcome, it cares about the free choice. Economic liberalism -- for all its faults -- really is based on the principles of free association, enforcement of contracts, and voluntary trade. You can argue that the outcomes don't capture externalities, but you can't argue that they are involuntary.

Communism, OTOH, cares only about outcomes -- is this distribution of resources fair -- and does not care about free choice at all. This is because you have to forcefully take stuff from one person to give to another, and forcefully ban someone from running their own for-profit business. Of course communism couldn't do that perfectly -- there was always a black market of people who bought and sold for a profit. But they risked prison time for that, and sometimes were sent to Siberian labor camps.

Under capitalism you can create a contract in which people voluntarily pool resources and then distribute them according to some rule, say everyone gets a fixed payout irrespective of their position in the company. Therefore the economic system in which a group of people can choose to collectively own property is called "capitalism".