Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991) • Hacker News Board

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#211

Post by j56no » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 8:29 PM UTC

karaterobot wrote: post #63

I would take a 10 hour day in almost any job in the 21st century over an 8-16 hour workday for a 14th century farm laborer mowing hay with a scythe or plowing behind a team of oxen. I get meal and rest breaks too, and even though they may get more days off than I do, what are they doing on those days off? Chopping wood? Thatching their roof? Hauling water from a well? The amount of labor done in a day by peasants in…

we could have more spare time and use that to improve society, instead we’re kept busy printing money

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#212

Post by SequoiaHope » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 8:30 PM UTC

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #201

SequoiaHope wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: End “consumerism” behavior where every problem is perceived to have a solution in the form of a quick product you can buy - much of that is a psychological trick played by marketers and rarely solves the real problem. Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc. Des…

This isn’t a dig against you, but isn’t this just an idealized view of a communist society?

I mean yes I do call it libertarian communism, tho I often leave that part out since people will be totally onboard until you mention the name. But also it’s a specific scheme that has the goal of lowering the marginal cost of living. And it’s totally voluntary which is not true for all schemes for communism.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#213

Post by didibus » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 8:30 PM UTC

tshaddox wrote: post #199

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

Couldn’t that just be because you were young and now you’re less so? A long career of physical labor definitely takes a toll on the body. Young people can just take a lot before it catches up.

That's possible and hard for me to know unless I were to try one of those jobs again at my age.

It's true that physical labor can cause injury that can hunt you later in life. But also:

> Sedentary lifestyles increase all causes of mortality, double the risk of cardiovascular diseases, diabetes, and obesity, and increase the risks of colon cancer, high blood pressure, osteoporosis, lipid disorders, depression and anxiety.

So I'm not sure desk jobs are any better. They just create less obvious problems, where a shoulder pain from an old shoulder injury is easy to trace back to the cause, desk job injury caused from sedentary life style are hard to trace back but could be worse.

Also, I'm talking about a bit of a different problem, which is not how it leaves you later in life, but how it makes you feel when the day is over. Feeling physically tired can almost be nice, you take a bath and it feels so good. And when you go to sleep you have this nice deep restorative sleep from the physical exhaustion. Your brain isn't tied up with work. And all that.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#214

Post by t-3 » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 8:31 PM UTC

Ginden wrote: post #177

null_object wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope people understand that the argument the article presents is largely a romanticization of poverty I think the opposite is the interesting factor here: late-stage capitalism has demonized the ‘grinding poverty’ and ‘unremitting hardship’ of these earlier ages, to keep our present-day noses to the life-destroying grindstone.

> I think the opposite is the interesting factor here: late-stage capitalism has demonized the ‘grinding poverty’ and ‘unremitting hardship’ of these earlier ages, to keep our present-day noses to the life-destroying grindstone. Yet, no one chooses life of subsistence farmer if they are able to choose.

Really? Who has that choice available to them? I certainly don't - land tax necessitates profits (and $$$$$/acre to buy arable land in the first place!). The diggers and levelers certainly didn't seem interested in being forced off their land.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#215

Post by TaylorAlexander » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 8:32 PM UTC

matrixcubed wrote: post #207

SequoiaHope wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: End “consumerism” behavior where every problem is perceived to have a solution in the form of a quick product you can buy - much of that is a psychological trick played by marketers and rarely solves the real problem. Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc. Des…

I would entice you to read Manna by Marshall Brain.

I’ve come across it but I don’t read much. Most of my learning comes from audio lectures.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#216

Post by clairity » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #201

SequoiaHope wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that we can eliminate 90% of the required labor in our economy with the following strategy: End “consumerism” behavior where every problem is perceived to have a solution in the form of a quick product you can buy - much of that is a psychological trick played by marketers and rarely solves the real problem. Take note of the goods and services we really need. Things like food, shelter, shoes, etc. Des…

This isn’t a dig against you, but isn’t this just an idealized view of a communist society?

...and/or idealized socialism. i agree that consumerism is an issue, but the solution isn't 'end consumerism', as that's just completely unrealistic. it'd be more realistic to think of ways to redirect our esteem-giving activities toward people who produce real and essential goods, and the rest would balance out much better as a result. that's diametrically opposed to our corrent system of giving esteem to the wealthy, which is why this approach is also very difficult, but not impossible.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#217

Post by shreyshnaccount » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #198

Chris2048 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has worked in other human societies before so this should be possible Which ones?

Many indigenous cultures. The Iroquois native Americans might be one example. There was no notion that a minority got rich off the labor of others.

a tangent: I remember reading that historically, Chinese doctors were paid by the healthy people in order to keep the community healthy, and a sick person would not pay until they recovered. I would compare it to insurance, but that's not really the same, it would be of doctors were the insurance providers, but the current model just makes a third party really rich and incentivises the doctors to wish general cough and cold on the community (I'm not saying that doctors are evil, just that the current system doesn't make sense to me) I'd love to hear an opposing view, and why you think that way. cheers, have a great day yall

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#218

Post by creato » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

Did you have older coworkers in your physical labor job? I did. Those people were not happy or healthy.

I think you are looking back through tinted glasses. I also liked my physical labor job when I was young, but I also know it would be terrible when I was 40 or 50.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#219

Post by emodendroket » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 8:37 PM UTC

hogFeast wrote: post #178

emodendroket wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absurd. "History" is not some kind of science done by weights and measures but the job of interpreting various things about the past into some sort of cohesive narrative. Of course the result of trying to recapture something about the past is often not very much alike -- I don't think the American Republic is really that much like the Roman Republic, despite consciously attempting to recreate it -- but the idea that…

You have missed the point totally. The "cohesive narrative" stands alone. History exists only on its own terms. You cannot look at something that happened in history and say: we can do this because it happened then. It is not absurd, it is the basic aspect of how histography is taught in university (and btw, if you study politics...you will find the same idea, "path dependence"...you see parallels in every social sci…

The past leads directly into the present, so how could that possibly be? When do you think it’s cut off? Does yesterday not suggest anything about today?

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#220

Post by jdthedisciple » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 8:38 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #164

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

Age difference is important here. Physical labor jobs will work better for young people than old.

Not entirely true. Visit some east asian countries and you'll see the physical work is literally what keeps the elderly so physically fit and in good shape for very long.