Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute • Hacker News Board

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#181

Post by sayhar » Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 12:55 AM UTC

camgunz wrote: post #125

baumy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I disagree with that. Even if I agreed, I'd still think we shouldn't do anything about it. How much bad stuff is "too much?" Which stuff is "bad"? Who gets to decide? Why should I trust them? Who and what else is influencing them? What happens when the people making those decisions change? Why should I cede the authority to decide which "stuff" I get to see to anyone other than myself? There are no good answers…

I don't think we need to get that philosophical about it. Can't use bots, can't pay people to astroturf. Ez.

yep.

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#182

Post by sayhar » Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 12:57 AM UTC

stainforth wrote: post #146

TechBro8615 wrote: post #41

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This is either a Trojan horse or an exercise in self-aggrandizing pomposity. What is this about “not breaking your NDAs” with Facebook? If you had integrity the NDAs wouldn’t matter, because no moral framework is constrained by respecting an arbitrary document drafted by a megacorporation to keep you silent. When your first move is to assuage any fears from your former employer that you might do something as drastic…

The recent whistleblower has also been suggested to be a tactic to control and set the terms of the concern about Facebook, utlimately not challenging its reach as a monopoly but to allow for certain censorship actions that facebook would be more than happy to oblige to do.

You really think Frances is a deep cover op by Facebook? Really? Wow.

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#183

Post by blitzar » Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 9:56 AM UTC

ljm wrote: post #179

blitzar wrote: post #161

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> you're welcome to think FB employees are beyond redemption You are welcome to think that is what I think but it is just doubling down on faclie. The societal context and literature on redemption or salvation is typically religious. We can also wade into the crime vs morality vs things that should be crimes against humanity but are not because there are shareholders. Christians even have a handy loophole as usual. T…

So is it the paycheque and internal moral compass or is it the religious aspect, or is it is just christianity and a good/evil dichotomy and christians having a loop hole? Is it money? Or is it a rogue actor, or an overriding philisophy? In all of that, you would refuse 100% to do something. I honestly can't tell if you're agreeing with me when you say everyone has a price, or you're trying to dispute it.

There are two matters posed originally redeption and your actions. Redemtion is tied up in all of the

When it comes to ones own actions everyone has a price. Unless you are at the very top of facebook there is nobody paying that price.

When it comes to redeption, you can go to heaven, hell or purgatory and maybe even try and buy your way out of it.

Yes, if you paid me a billion I would happily incite genocide half way around the world, it would make me beyond redemption but I would have a billion dollars, so maybe I can buy my way out of it. But that isnt happening, what is on the table is standard salaries, which are the same as you can get elsewhere in the same profession, potentially even lower.

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#184

Post by sayhar » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 1:45 AM UTC

dogman144 wrote: post #176

sayhar wrote: post #88

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This is a great question! I'm still trying to find a top-down definition instead of a "I know it when I see it" one. To me it's probably something like this: we can think about an information ecosystem or social platform as a system. "Normal" hacking of the system happens through finding loopholes code. (That's cybersecurity). "Integrity-related" hacking of the system happens through finding loopholes in design and r…

I know I'm hammering you in another thread, but will press pause for a second. What you're basically describing as "integrity hacking" is already around as a discipline "social-cybersecurity." If not the same thing, it's likely a very close peer discipline. Also, coopting a word like 'integrity' vs. 'platform integrity' or 'cyberspace community integrity' or w/e is a tough call. By doing that, you end up with PR-dest…

dogman, thank you for the heads up about this social-cybersecurity group. It does seem related, and I'll be sure to check them out. Lately, someone has also mentioned m3aawg.org, which also seems adjacent.

Personally, I do think the field has a lot to learn from cybersecurity. From my POV, integrity work has three different 90's ancestors: web forum moderation,email/search engine antispam work, and cybersecurity mindsets like risk mitigation rather than risk elimination.

As for the PR stuff -- fair enough! We're all trying to do the best we can with the skills we have. Not every decision will be the right one. Maybe the name was one of those.

I hope you check back in with us in 6-12 months. Once you can judge us more by our work over time, I hope we will have earned your respect.

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#185

Post by rexpop » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

AlbertCory wrote: post #129

rexpop wrote: post #120

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Democracy has absolutely collapsed. Our days are governed for eight hours by autocratic bosses and for eight hours by autocratic "products" and "services." We have no say about how our work is conducted, nor about what poisons hit the shelves. It's astonishing to me that anyone thinks we have "democracy" under Capitalism, where plutocracy masquerades as meritocracy – which isn't democracy, anyway! > They can decide f…

Okey, dokey, Noam. Have fun when you move to Caracas.

I don't share your idiosyncratic connotations enough to understand how this is an insult.

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#186

Post by smsm42 » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

AlbertCory wrote: post #172

smsm42 wrote: post #155

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It proves that after people are repeatedly lied to - remember "don't buy masks"? Remember "go out and celebrate!"? Remember "restricting international travel is racist"? Remember "two weeks to flatten the curve"? that's just covid crap, there was 10x that on other topics, I'd just nominate "fiery but mostly peaceful" and let it rest at that. After all that overwhelming torrent of lies people don't believe a word that…

Very good points. Rogan said Google is hiding information (which they are). Once you lose your trust, it's difficult or impossible to get it back. "Let's lie to them, but do it better & more comprehensively" is what the censors seem to be saying.

That's the worst aspect of it. When the elites started lying and people started turning away from them, the conclusion that they made - and still are making - is not that they have to stop lying and try to rebuild trust, but that they need to lie harder, more creative and suppress any alternative information sources harder, so there wouldn't be any way to contradict them. They are not seeking to re-establish the trust, they are seeking the situation where your trust doesn't matter anymore because you don't have any choice.