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Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

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181–190 of 419 posts

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#181

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

I don't know if I totally agree. At my (software) desk job, if I'm working on designing or investigating something it can be very exciting and engrossing. But there are definitely days where it feels like I'm just minding deadlines and priorities and schedules. Those can be very tiring.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe these simple time passing rituals were enough to enjoy their winters. I think we might consider them dull because we're not living their lives but maybe these were denser and fuller times than what we do today. It's also possible that having harsher conditions half a year, made simple games and gatherings deeply satisfying.

I don't want to completely write off progress, because there's been a lot of that and I don't envy medieval peasants, however I think there's a tradeoff. They were bored most of the day waiting for the bocce-precursor or cock fight to begin, while we've got something to play with constantly that appears to give us anxiety and insomnia. Boredom isn't usually fatal and may even protect against other problems.

Me neither, I think it's time for a review about some hidden principles we assume are good for us (constant availability of easy pleasures) but may not be.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#183
post #130

This analysis is solely focused on the "job" aspects of pre-industrial life and includes almost none of the domestic considerations. I'm not sure if it would be fair to call all non-wage time "leisure". Once work was still over there were still things to clean, fix, prepare, butcher, etc. Although, I think it goes without saying that before affordable lighting and heating, we all underestimate how lazy winters were f…

So they just sat around and were poor all day? All the rich culture being brought through the generations, it meant nothing? I grew up on a farm. It was run pretty much by manual labour up until even the 30's and beyond. Even while tractors and various forms of farm automation became pretty commonplace by the 50's and 60's, they still used age old techniques for preserving hay by drying it on metal threads well into…

Don't a lot of people actually enjoy their coworkers and working, too?

I mean, I'm sure almost everyone including farmers had a list of things they'd rather do than work - but are the majority of people today really working jobs that just make them absolutely miserable?

One of my best friends is a cashier at Trader Joe's and - for the most part - she genuinely enjoys it. Only two of my friends HATE their jobs, and their desperately trying to find a new job. Almost all of my friends have lots of complaints about their jobs - but they also have a lot of things they like about it, too.

Why isn't there a grey area for modern work and leisure but there is one for old work?

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#184

This analysis is solely focused on the "job" aspects of pre-industrial life and includes almost none of the domestic considerations. I'm not sure if it would be fair to call all non-wage time "leisure". Once work was still over there were still things to clean, fix, prepare, butcher, etc. Although, I think it goes without saying that before affordable lighting and heating, we all underestimate how lazy winters were f…

> people developed almost no leisure activities! This is clearly not true. They didn't have modern leisure activities, but they had a vast array of activities to keep them from getting bored when they weren't working or doing the arduous, nearly continuous preparation of meals. > Common people had almost no sports, no games (beyond precursors to Bocce or backgammon), no literature! No literature, sure, because they w…

> I'm not as familiar with womens' lives, but I imagine they had more responsibilities and less leisure time. Cooking, cleaning (such as it was), sewing/needlepoint, and raising children all takes considerable time, so they mightn't have had as much time for leisure. A lot of the above activities were also intended for men.

My understanding is that women would do most if not all of these activities in groups with other women and use it as an opportunity for talking.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#185
For a deeper dive, James Suzman the anthropologist wrote 'Work: A Deep History, from the Stone Age to the Age of Robots'. Published in 2021. It's worth a read if anyone wants understand how the industrial revolution changed work patterns and (perhaps more importantly) how the agricultural revolution changed how people spend their time and how much leisure time people have had throughout human history

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#186

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

Thats too romantic - physical labour isnt funny when its repetetive and continuous, which most are. Also not using your head is frustrating / degenerative. What helps me most is keeping a balance, making mid day breaks for long runs outside or a nap does miracles. But I agree, it also needs mental relief to regenerate, but doing sports gives at least minimal breaks.

You're right, I think I need to be more specific, assembly line work in some factory might count as physical labor, and that might not be any better, I can't say as I've never had that job.

I'm thinking more in terms of the article, construction work, farming, and the more pre-industrial kind of physical labor.

For me specifically, it was construction work, bus boy, landscaping, janitorial work and military training. All these just involved constantly moving my body in various ways but also I'd say not in a repetitive at risk of RSI kind of way. So it really just felt like exercise.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#187
post #77

This analysis is solely focused on the "job" aspects of pre-industrial life and includes almost none of the domestic considerations. I'm not sure if it would be fair to call all non-wage time "leisure". Once work was still over there were still things to clean, fix, prepare, butcher, etc. Although, I think it goes without saying that before affordable lighting and heating, we all underestimate how lazy winters were f…

> Common people had almost no sports, no games (beyond precursors to Bocce or backgammon), no literature! They had some kind of holiday or celebration every month, often a few in one month. These were often similar to sports (for example Śmigus Dyngus where young boys run around the villages pouring water on girls they like as a pagan fertility custom). Or Noc Świętojańska where girls throw flowers into river and boy…

> example Śmigus Dyngus where young boys run around the villages pouring water on girls they like as a pagan fertility custom

Lupercalia always sounded like a good time to me. Who doesn’t want to strip naked and run through the streets whipping willing young women hoping to have their fertility increased?

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was taught that as well, in what retrospectively was blatant capitalist propaganda. That the only thing that has given us leisure was the efficiencies of capitalism, and the benevolence of capitalists. Albeit my school district was really into right wing propaganda in general, describing the civil war as "the war of northern aggression" in its text books.

It's not "capitalist propaganda". There's a reason humanity moved in this direction, away from feudalism and subsistence farming. It sucks. More people today enjoy a higher standard of living than even the wealthiest could have dreamt of in the time period discussed in this article. Your life does not hinge on a good growing season or getting mysteriously sick with no cure. You don't have to know how to hunt, forage,…

Literally this article is about how on several important metrics, we don't overall have a higher standard of living.

People didn't move into the factories from the fields for the higher standard, they moved there because they never owned the fields, and the industrial revolution pushed them out with increased automation, so they moved to the only place that would employ them even though it was a step backwards in standard of living.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#189
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Similarly, all the household tasks then would take a full working day. Not even close. Try visiting a rural place that still lives in pre-20th century standards (not as hard as it sounds in Central Asia, Africa, etc. Heck, even in most of Europe it was the norm up around the 1950s in almost all rural areas, and in many places in Southern Europe it was quite the same up to the 1970s -- electricity and cars didn't co…

I have visited a pre-industrial villages in Eastern Europe and not once did I feel the urge to trade places. I have no idea what you are on about. The hosts spent two hours preparing a hearth to cook bread for us. And they ended the meal with a plead for us to help them get visas to the West. And you are vastly underestimating the child death rates where small children roam freely. Children in factories might have ar…

>I have visited a pre-industrial villages in Eastern Europe and not once did I feel the urge to trade places.

Well, this is beside the point, this was about whether "household chores took the best part of the day". Not whether you would trade to rural living or not.

>The hosts spent two hours preparing a hearth to cook bread for us

So? I've roasted, cooked, etc. for decades, and it was never a big deal, nor you have to be over the wood-stove or grill for the whole time (when you do, the cooking is very fast, like with some meats). And if there are 3-4 persons in the household (as there always were, families lived with several children and grandparents where never far away), it's dead easy to have rounds keeping an eye on it and still be free to do whatever else.

>And you are vastly underestimating the child death rates where small children roam freely. Children in factories might have arguably been safer than on a farm.

You're vastly overestimating.

Kids restrained is modern helicopter parent hysteria. Kids generally roamed free up until the 70s in most places in Europe, and well into the 60s in most neighborhoods, even in cities like New York. It's not some medieval phenomenon, or something associated with "high child death rates". The ocassional kid could stil e.g. drown in a lake, like the ocassional kid today can be hit by a car. But that was not where "high child death rates" came from. Increased child death rates were indeed a thing, but were in birth or small age due to the lack of modern medicine (and most of it basic stuff, like cleaning hands, penicilin, etc, not high test medicine). In any case, not something particular to "kids roaming free".

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to think that higher education is not as interesting as it's said to be. And people who used to work hands on (woodwork, metal smith) had a lot of deep knowledge too, it just wasn't seen as evolved. Frankly I don't think one book will ever prepare you to live the situations above. This is the kind of thick skin only real life can imprint in you. That girl probably knew everything she could have said, but biolo…

> I tend to think that higher education is not as interesting as it's said to be. And people who used to work hands on (woodwork, metal smith) had a lot of deep knowledge too, it just wasn't seen as evolved. It's not necessarily your fault, but I hear this trendy claim often, but nobody can support it. No one book can teach you everything and not every problem can be solved with knowledge, of course, and there are th…

I don't know, I learned about physics in HS and college, but nothing made me understand it better than actually interacting with materials (and it wasn't at school). Being faced with reality changes your depth of understanding IMO.

All in all I think our model of society is slightly fooling itself about a lot of things. It adds but it subtracts too.

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