Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991) • Hacker News Board

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#161

Post by dang » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

kingkawn wrote: post #142

new_guy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I think the best evidence we have that we are overrating the quality of pre-industrial leisure time is that people developed almost no leisure activities Dude, what? This is quite possibly the dumbest most ignorant ill-informed take I've seen today. https://victorianweb.org/history/leisure1.html

Robbing him of his strawman

Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? You've been doing it repeatedly, unfortunately, and we're trying for something different here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#162

Post by 5faulker » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #26

This analysis is solely focused on the "job" aspects of pre-industrial life and includes almost none of the domestic considerations. I'm not sure if it would be fair to call all non-wage time "leisure". Once work was still over there were still things to clean, fix, prepare, butcher, etc. Although, I think it goes without saying that before affordable lighting and heating, we all underestimate how lazy winters were f…

Even so, we're getting more educated than ever and with the advent of inflation, it's hard to say that collectively we're getting ahead of our ancestors.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#163

Post by dang » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #107

fma wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time spent is preparing and harvesting. In between you watch things grow and maintain. When nothing is growing...at least, my in-laws in China...drink, gamble (mahjong, card games) and hang out with other villagers. They all pooled their money together for some heavy machinery too...so even that has cut down a lot of time spent on prep & harvesting. You could get jobs in the city when there's no farming t…

Yeah, cloth and bedsheets make themselves. Fabric just exist and don't need to be created. Animals don't need continuous care. Tools and houses don't need fixing. Candles appear from thin air. Wood cuts itself.

"Don't be snarky."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#164

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

Age difference is important here. Physical labor jobs will work better for young people than old.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#165

Post by tsegratis » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

throwaway984393 wrote: post #136

legitster wrote: post #26

This analysis is solely focused on the "job" aspects of pre-industrial life and includes almost none of the domestic considerations. I'm not sure if it would be fair to call all non-wage time "leisure". Once work was still over there were still things to clean, fix, prepare, butcher, etc. Although, I think it goes without saying that before affordable lighting and heating, we all underestimate how lazy winters were f…

> people developed almost no leisure activities! This is clearly not true. They didn't have modern leisure activities, but they had a vast array of activities to keep them from getting bored when they weren't working or doing the arduous, nearly continuous preparation of meals. > Common people had almost no sports, no games (beyond precursors to Bocce or backgammon), no literature! No literature, sure, because they w…

Having lived in semi agrarian societies, can confirm for women too

Also once the sun goes down, the work stops -- nobody aint cookin once they cant see the food, not even washing up

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#166

Post by wolverine876 » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #159

wolverine876 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most people I ran at work into were not specially educated We're talking about an historic timescale. If they are literate and have high school degrees, they are very well educated compared to pre-industrial people. > woman in charge of my office bowed down in excuses after a lawyer insulted her for his own mistake. This is the sort of power people still don't have and that no book will teach you. Those situations…

I tend to think that higher education is not as interesting as it's said to be. And people who used to work hands on (woodwork, metal smith) had a lot of deep knowledge too, it just wasn't seen as evolved. Frankly I don't think one book will ever prepare you to live the situations above. This is the kind of thick skin only real life can imprint in you. That girl probably knew everything she could have said, but biolo…

> I tend to think that higher education is not as interesting as it's said to be. And people who used to work hands on (woodwork, metal smith) had a lot of deep knowledge too, it just wasn't seen as evolved.

It's not necessarily your fault, but I hear this trendy claim often, but nobody can support it. No one book can teach you everything and not every problem can be solved with knowledge, of course, and there are things we learn from experience, but the track record of learning from books is pretty unimpeachable - including, learning from other people's experiences. (And higher ed is much more than learning from books.) It's hard to imagine humanity without literacy.

Anyway, I'm not adding a heck of a lot at this point ...

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#167

Post by knownjorbist » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 7:37 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #81

hogFeast wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where were you taught that? Fairly basic logic should indicate to you that it wouldn't have been possible for people to work as much. There was no manufacturing. The vast majority of people who worked, worked in agriculture. You cannot work in the middle of winter, you cannot work at night. I don't know how it would have been possible...and that is why people then lived in crushing poverty (it isn't comparable to any…

I was taught that as well, in what retrospectively was blatant capitalist propaganda. That the only thing that has given us leisure was the efficiencies of capitalism, and the benevolence of capitalists. Albeit my school district was really into right wing propaganda in general, describing the civil war as "the war of northern aggression" in its text books.

It's not "capitalist propaganda". There's a reason humanity moved in this direction, away from feudalism and subsistence farming. It sucks. More people today enjoy a higher standard of living than even the wealthiest could have dreamt of in the time period discussed in this article. Your life does not hinge on a good growing season or getting mysteriously sick with no cure. You don't have to know how to hunt, forage, clean a carcass, construct shelter or clothing, on and on and on. It's remarkable that people today can survive without knowing _anything_ about where the means for the survival came from.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#168

Post by b112 » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 7:37 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #147

legitster wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough! But I think it would also be fair to say that if we shouldn't assume peasants had idyllic lives just because we compare their medieval timecards to our own.

Maybe we could find people living in similar conditions, say like the amish (or maybe more niche groups) and see what they created. Well even amish people have modern lives compared to middle ages but you get the idea.

Indeed! They even have Windows!

http://www.microbizz.nl/themanfrommicrosoft.htm

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#169

Post by aquanext » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 7:38 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

This is me.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#170

Post by go_elmo » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 7:38 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #156

Tangentially, the physical labor jobs I had when younger never really tired me out the way that the mental/bureaucratic/political job I have now does. Physical work actually energized me, I mean this is all confirmed today as well, we know all the benefits exercise brings on well being. There's something about desk jobs that is frankly soul sucking and literally mentally draining in a way where when the day ends, it'…

Thats too romantic - physical labour isnt funny when its repetetive and continuous, which most are. Also not using your head is frustrating / degenerative. What helps me most is keeping a balance, making mid day breaks for long runs outside or a nap does miracles. But I agree, it also needs mental relief to regenerate, but doing sports gives at least minimal breaks.