Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991) • Hacker News Board

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#111

Post by Ericson2314 » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:33 PM UTC

The problem is that the more we automate, the supply exceeds demand in the labor market. That in turn allows employers to easily suck up the excess potential workers at low wages, and also makes further automation or even repairing the machines we got uneconomical.

Stagnant weak demands screws over big things like nuclear power plants and subways.

We need things like a UBI and further shrinking of the workweek (perhaps as an "automatic stabilizer" based on pop vs total working hours vs popuation!) in order to not stagnate technology and get back our free time.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#112

Post by gbronner » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:33 PM UTC

britch wrote: post #47

Swizec wrote: post #3

Sure they had a “shorter workweek” but it also took women a full workday to wash the family’s clothes, hours of walking to get water for the day, and if you wanted something from the town over that was a 3 day trip. So many everyday things we take for granted were incredibly difficult and involved a lot of manual labor and/or waiting around for hours and days. I wonder how much of that leisure time came from being bl…

I think you are right about this. Life may have had less of what we think of as "work" now. The part that I think is interesting is, as we progressed technologically, where did that time non-conventional working time go? It used to take hours to clean your home, prepare food, etc. We have modern technology which made it easier. How are people spending that new "free" time? I think the answer seems to be that technolo…

We have automatic dishwashers now. During WW1, a relative of mine was sent from the city to help on a farm. After dinner, the family lined up all the platters and plates and put them outside, where a herd of hungry cats would lick them clean. Presumably they were rinsed afterwards, but nobody ever told me.

There are qualitative differences in results independent of time savings...

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#113

Post by penjelly » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

this reminds me of a part of Sapiens where they discuss how agriculture actually ended up taking up more time then foraging for early settlers. They also mentioned how their nutrition and teeth suffered initially as well.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#114

Post by yibg » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #26

This analysis is solely focused on the "job" aspects of pre-industrial life and includes almost none of the domestic considerations. I'm not sure if it would be fair to call all non-wage time "leisure". Once work was still over there were still things to clean, fix, prepare, butcher, etc. Although, I think it goes without saying that before affordable lighting and heating, we all underestimate how lazy winters were f…

I’ve spent a bit of time in the rural areas of a developing country when I was younger visiting extended family. These were farmers that were fairly poor. In the summer months, lots of work, from dawn until dusk. But after the harvest until the next planting season there was no “work” to do. It was not fun.

People visited the same people (small village) and talked about the same things day after day. Days consisted of talking, doing chores around the house, eating and sleeping.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#115

Post by ajuc » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:38 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #103

mc32 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they had Sundays off for religious reasons, but not sure how much choice peasants or farmers had given fields need clearing, seeds need planting, crops needed harvesting and animals needed caring, reproducing, feeding, butchering and preserving, irrespective of day of week. Slacking on any of the above could result in starvation the coming Winter as well as possibly losing your animals as well. There was lots…

I guess it depends on the era or region of Europe, but it seems "Sabbath-keeping" was not always assumed - it having Jewish connotations. So it seems that outside of religious holidays, people could have been expected to work every day.

In Catholic Europe it was culturally enforced apart from exceptional situations (like you have to harvest your grain and rain is coming). Sabbath literally means "Saturday" in many central-European languages, so celebrating on Sundays had no Jewish associations. In fact it was the opposite because Jews didn't observed Sundays, so you could be called "a Jew" for not observing Catholic holidays including Sundays.

Feeding animals didn't counted as work, just like nowadays people don't think cooking for your family or brushing your teeth is work.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#116

Post by orthoxerox » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:38 PM UTC

hintymad wrote: post #40

What if work is leisure? Jack Welch used to mention that he couldn't wait to get back to office in weekends. I personally feel that large part of my work is really leisure: researching new algorithms, building POCs, writing whitepapers and narratives, having brainstorming meetings, and etc. I don't think I can get such meaningful activities outside of work, either. That's because the work gives real use cases that de…

> I personally feel that large part of my work is really leisure

You're (we're) in a privileged position. Most jobs are drudgery: data entry specialists, cashiers, warehouse workers, assembly line workers, shop assistants. To them, every day at work is the same, and something different happening is a sign of things going wrong.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#117

Post by bluGill » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #86

the-dude wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I clean, cook, fix & do the dishes in 2021. Once in a while, I prepare something. My father had a 40 hr work week and did not do sports, neither did my mother.

> I clean, cook, fix & do the dishes in 2021. Once in a while, I prepare something. You don't think that cleaning, cooking, fixing and doing dishes is a bit less work today than in pre industrial era?

It isn't clear. I'm sure I wash my clothes more than they did. I suspect dishes to them were rarely washed, while wash every use. Sure I have machines to do the work, but I suspect I spend more as much time, but im getting better quality results.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#118

Post by gbronner » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

slv77 wrote: post #94

ren_engineer wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

article basically ignores quality of life in exchange for "leisure". I could build a crude shelter and be homeless and basically achieve the same thing, turns out most people don't want that. Fact is most people voluntarily opt in to capitalism because life is better, if you want something close to what the article talks about you can pretty easily move to an Amish community or try creating your own commune and try t…

The biggest increases in quality of life comes from public health measure such as access to clean water, food and air. The next is protection from the elements with access to adequate clothing, shelter and fuel. After that I would argue that trust in the integrity of public institutions (rule of law) and security from the threat of violence and extortion. Then it would be access to education, basic health care to pro…

Peace. Not having an army sell you into slavery or burn/steal all of your possessions is a precursor for capital formation

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#119

Post by null_object » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #26

This analysis is solely focused on the "job" aspects of pre-industrial life and includes almost none of the domestic considerations. I'm not sure if it would be fair to call all non-wage time "leisure". Once work was still over there were still things to clean, fix, prepare, butcher, etc. Although, I think it goes without saying that before affordable lighting and heating, we all underestimate how lazy winters were f…

> I hope people understand that the argument the article presents is largely a romanticization of poverty

I think the opposite is the interesting factor here: late-stage capitalism has demonized the ‘grinding poverty’ and ‘unremitting hardship’ of these earlier ages, to keep our present-day noses to the life-destroying grindstone.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#120

Post by the-dude » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #86

the-dude wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I clean, cook, fix & do the dishes in 2021. Once in a while, I prepare something. My father had a 40 hr work week and did not do sports, neither did my mother.

> I clean, cook, fix & do the dishes in 2021. Once in a while, I prepare something. You don't think that cleaning, cooking, fixing and doing dishes is a bit less work today than in pre industrial era?

I think I use much more utensils, pans and plates than in those times. Cups too. Also I wear clean underpants everyday ( well, this is a small lie ).

I fix and change secondhand clothes, but I do have a sewing machine. Other things I fix were unfanthomable then, some fixes take weeks. My Selectric III for example.