Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991) • Hacker News Board

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#91

Post by legitster » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #83

hogFeast wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite right. I think we are seeing proof of what you are saying with the childcare cost crisis in most developed nations. A good proportion of early years childcare (and often later) was "free". Now that it is being transferred into wage labour in many countries with growing labour force participation amongst women, we are learning that this stuff was very costly. Similarly, all the household tasks then would take a…

> Similarly, all the household tasks then would take a full working day. Not even close. Try visiting a rural place that still lives in pre-20th century standards (not as hard as it sounds in Central Asia, Africa, etc. Heck, even in most of Europe it was the norm up around the 1950s in almost all rural areas, and in many places in Southern Europe it was quite the same up to the 1970s -- electricity and cars didn't co…

I have visited a pre-industrial villages in Eastern Europe and not once did I feel the urge to trade places. I have no idea what you are on about.

The hosts spent two hours preparing a hearth to cook bread for us. And they ended the meal with a plead for us to help them get visas to the West.

And you are vastly underestimating the child death rates where small children roam freely. Children in factories might have arguably been safer than on a farm.

We need to stop romanticizing other people's poverty.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#92

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #39

agumonkey wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the TED talk I had in mind, I just forgot Hans' name. I understand his argument but I think it's a biased view, we assume modern leisure is better but I'm not sold on this.

Education, literacy, political empowerment are not leisure.

These are all cute words, but on my daily routine I see nothing of that sort. People are not especially empowered, power which I believe comes as much from emotional and human experience rather than words.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#93

Post by enzino » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:17 PM UTC

GaryTang wrote: post #46

Homeless people are dramatically better off than our ancestors

half of them have supercomputers sitting around in their tents, so i'm tempted to agree with you. but they are treated like shit by their fellow humans. we literally produce enough food, even just in the usa, for 2/3 times our population. most of it gets wasted because of crazy socialist agricultural policies, to feed animals that will be incinerated instead of eaten, and so on. same goes for housing, and all other necessities. i think the homeless people are saner than the others, but they i don't think they're happy

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#94

Post by slv77 » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:17 PM UTC

ren_engineer wrote: post #4

Swizec wrote: post #3

Sure they had a “shorter workweek” but it also took women a full workday to wash the family’s clothes, hours of walking to get water for the day, and if you wanted something from the town over that was a 3 day trip. So many everyday things we take for granted were incredibly difficult and involved a lot of manual labor and/or waiting around for hours and days. I wonder how much of that leisure time came from being bl…

article basically ignores quality of life in exchange for "leisure". I could build a crude shelter and be homeless and basically achieve the same thing, turns out most people don't want that. Fact is most people voluntarily opt in to capitalism because life is better, if you want something close to what the article talks about you can pretty easily move to an Amish community or try creating your own commune and try t…

The biggest increases in quality of life comes from public health measure such as access to clean water, food and air. The next is protection from the elements with access to adequate clothing, shelter and fuel. After that I would argue that trust in the integrity of public institutions (rule of law) and security from the threat of violence and extortion. Then it would be access to education, basic health care to prolong life and reduce suffering.

Beyond that we have basic needs to feel that we are part of a family and community where we are loved and valued (belong) and where we can contribute (purpose).

While capitalism has excelled at improving productivity it doesn’t dictate that the gains in productivity necessarily will increase overall quality of life. I could, for example increase the productivity of food production in ways that may decrease overall public health. In that scenario capitalism would directly decrease quality of life.

I think the arguments on hacker news have mostly been due to a (US) system that has become extremely rigid in that there is less personal choice in how productivity gains may be spent by forcing people into very narrow specialties to maximize income.

In many cases that may result in overall lower quality of life if it impacts long term health or being part of a community.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#95

Post by loosetypes » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

fma wrote: post #75

SavantIdiot wrote: post #6

> And they worked only as many days as were necessary to earn their customary income -- which in this case amounted to about 120 days a year, for a probable total of only 1,440 hours annually (this estimate assumes a 12-hour day because the days worked were probably during spring, summer and fall). This goes against everything I've been taught, that the plebian class basically toiled endlessly, from Feudal Times to I…

Most of the time spent is preparing and harvesting. In between you watch things grow and maintain. When nothing is growing...at least, my in-laws in China...drink, gamble (mahjong, card games) and hang out with other villagers. They all pooled their money together for some heavy machinery too...so even that has cut down a lot of time spent on prep & harvesting. You could get jobs in the city when there's no farming t…

> Most of the time spent is preparing and harvesting. In between you watch things grow and maintain. When nothing is growing...at least, my in-laws in China...drink, gamble (mahjong, card games) and hang out with other villagers.

So replace computers with agriculture and this xkcd really is timeless.

https://xkcd.com/303/

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#96

Post by enzino » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

chiefalchemist wrote: post #17

I didn't see it mentioned...why? What happened in the mid 19th century that labor lost the upper hand to "management"? If the tradition (of less work hours) dates so far back, what triggered its disappearance so quickly? And going forward, as if it never existed?

labor has actually gained strength, we have dramatically easier ways to become financially independent today than we had in the 19th century. in europe peasants used to be basically slaves under the "law". i think the only thing that got worse is propaganda, which is the fake culture of the elites. once you turn your head the other way things get better

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#97

Post by lr4444lr » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #26

This analysis is solely focused on the "job" aspects of pre-industrial life and includes almost none of the domestic considerations. I'm not sure if it would be fair to call all non-wage time "leisure". Once work was still over there were still things to clean, fix, prepare, butcher, etc. Although, I think it goes without saying that before affordable lighting and heating, we all underestimate how lazy winters were f…

They had their church, their taverns, brothels, and gambling. They were poorly educated and often illiterate. I think your expectations are unfairly modern.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#98

Post by abyssin » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #86

the-dude wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I clean, cook, fix & do the dishes in 2021. Once in a while, I prepare something. My father had a 40 hr work week and did not do sports, neither did my mother.

> I clean, cook, fix & do the dishes in 2021. Once in a while, I prepare something. You don't think that cleaning, cooking, fixing and doing dishes is a bit less work today than in pre industrial era?

You comment reminds me of this article that I can't put my hands on, that explained that the generalization of washing machines actually increased work time in some situations, because with it came the expectation of wearing cleaner clothes.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#99

Post by watwut » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #91

coldtea wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Similarly, all the household tasks then would take a full working day. Not even close. Try visiting a rural place that still lives in pre-20th century standards (not as hard as it sounds in Central Asia, Africa, etc. Heck, even in most of Europe it was the norm up around the 1950s in almost all rural areas, and in many places in Southern Europe it was quite the same up to the 1970s -- electricity and cars didn't co…

I have visited a pre-industrial villages in Eastern Europe and not once did I feel the urge to trade places. I have no idea what you are on about. The hosts spent two hours preparing a hearth to cook bread for us. And they ended the meal with a plead for us to help them get visas to the West. And you are vastly underestimating the child death rates where small children roam freely. Children in factories might have ar…

Which part of that comment makes it sound great?

And if you think kids in factories were safer, you probably don't know much about how child work in factories functioned.

Re: Pre-industrial workers had a shorter workweek than today's (1991)

#100

Post by Aunche » Sat, Oct 30, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

Small time farmers in capitalist nations who did not serve a lord should have even more comfortable lives than peasants. According to this anti-capitalist narrative, it would be absolutely absurd for these people to abandon their their small farms and family to work in a crowded factory for longer hours and more dangerous conditions. And yet it happened anyways, suggesting that the life a a peasant wasn't as idyllic as the author seems to think it was.