Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#371

Post by ericmay » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

quadrifoliate wrote: post #277

nirui wrote: post #210

> ... There is a more intriguing possibility, however. Work that is largely done remotely may be more efficient compared with an office-first model. I don't think in-person real-time communication is always effective. No, I personally think it's one of the least method of communication that can happen in an office environment when the topic gets slightly complex (that is, if the topic is complex enough for you to wri…

One reason I have found real-time communication ineffective is that it favors the narcissists and egoists in the conversation who are comfortable talking over everyone else. Guess what happens in this situation – Bob spends 40 minutes talking out of the hour's meeting about how his way is right, interrupts everyone, and by the end of the hour meeting the boss is saying “Well, why don't we do a proof of concept with B…

> Guess what happens in this situation – Bob spends 40 minutes talking out of the hour's meeting about how his way is right, interrupts everyone, and by the end of the hour meeting the boss is saying “Well, why don't we do a proof of concept with Bob's suggestion” simply because everyone is bored and hungry.

This happens in Zoom meetings and phone calls all the time too. It’s even worse in remote land when it happens.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#372

Post by arethuza » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

brtkdotse wrote: post #318

quadrifoliate wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One reason I have found real-time communication ineffective is that it favors the narcissists and egoists in the conversation who are comfortable talking over everyone else. Guess what happens in this situation – Bob spends 40 minutes talking out of the hour's meeting about how his way is right, interrupts everyone, and by the end of the hour meeting the boss is saying “Well, why don't we do a proof of concept with B…

There’s a deeper aspect to this and that is that meritocracy is a fantasy. People skills trump almost _everything_ else, including black hat people skills like dominating a room.

What I sadly learned years ago is that a bad idea presented with absolute confidence and certainty will pretty much always beat a good idea presented with caveats and answers to questions that start with "It depends...".

The other thing I've noticed is that people who have good ideas are usually all too aware of the limitations and corner cases so will never present something with absolute confidence.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#373

Post by brokencode » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 1:27 PM UTC

randcraw wrote: post #232

synergy20 wrote: post #91

outsourcing has been going on for two decades, what's this so different other than more difficult to manage? big company will not find individual one by one, an employee overseas is hard to certify and might steal IP then disappear so there is more risk, language barrier, management challenging, time zone difference, not a total rosy picture for me. but yes for those really outstanding developers they will land a job…

Agreed. I work for a large US pharma. We tried outsourcing 10-15 years back and learned two things: 1) you will lose IP by the bucketsful if you outsource to certain countries, and 2) you will have a tough time retaining any kind of institutional memory from outsourcers since their staff moves around onto tasks for other companies or change jobs too fast to even build basic memory of your company's needs or infrastru…

Is this large US pharma ludicrously profitable like many pharmaceutical companies? Why can’t they just hire employees closer to home base and pay them a better salary?

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#374

Post by ghaff » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

pjerem wrote: post #189

ramesh31 wrote: post #8

Just got approved for permanate remote last week. The thought of going back to a multi-hour commute and having my physical location dictated by a job just sounds absurd at this point. Never again.

I think it depends on what your commute is. I find that very few people choose their location by taking commuting pleasure (and not only time) into account. Before the pandemic, I chose to live in the countryside but at walking distance from a train station. Coworkers always seem surprised I’m living « that far ». But now I’m equally happy to work from home or to take my refreshing 25min train trip through the countr…

25 minutes is a pretty short commute though. Especially if you can just walk to the train station.

If I were to go into our city office, I'd only have about a 5 minute drive to the train station. But between leaving some slack to park and pay, the train ride, and either the subway or a longish walk on the other end, I'm still more than 90 minutes door to door--and that's with good transport links.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#375

Post by exodust » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

evenhovercraft wrote: post #349

Very grateful that my employer has committed to remaining flexible with remote work. Full time in the office, hybrid, or full time remote. It’s up to the individual. Full time remote has done wonders for my health - instead of a 2 hour commute I get to exercise. Instead of coming home stressed, annoyed, and sitting in front of the TV, I go outside for a solid hour+ after I close my laptop. I travel more liberally now…

> and my gratefulness translates into feelings of loyalty towards my employer.

Yes and in turn translates to better quality work. In my case, I'm consciously adding extra web dev cherries on top every chance I can.

I haven't set foot in the office since the beginning of 2020, mostly due to lockdown. My boss is okay with it because he's happy with my work. I will never go back, I'd quit first.

Things I don't miss:

* The shared microwave always covered with a layer of grime on the inside.

* The office coffee machine, you drank it because it contains caffeine.

* Noise pollution from loud phone calls about things you have nothing to do with.

* Air con

* Air con set to a temperature you would change if you could.

* Staff toilets in general. Men's urinals without divider partitions.

* The small-talk encounters replayed every day with slightly different arrangement of words. They can be enjoyable too, but this is a cynical list.

* Driving and public transport, they both suck.

* Alarm clocks. For the first time in my life I wake up at the right time without an alarm.

* Not being able to make really nice breakfasts that take more time to prepare. (Porridge using steel-cut oats requires a 25 minute simmer, for example).

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#376

Post by novaRom » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

evenhovercraft wrote: post #349

Very grateful that my employer has committed to remaining flexible with remote work. Full time in the office, hybrid, or full time remote. It’s up to the individual. Full time remote has done wonders for my health - instead of a 2 hour commute I get to exercise. Instead of coming home stressed, annoyed, and sitting in front of the TV, I go outside for a solid hour+ after I close my laptop. I travel more liberally now…

Even now in October you wake up in the darkness, and it's dark again at 4 pm here. When WFH you can decide flexibly what time is the best for you for an hour of outside activity. You can go out at noon to enjoy few minutes of gentle sunshine. Then, being recharged it feels awesome and the total productivity is great.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#377

Post by bluedino » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

zerocount wrote: post #213

bob1029 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going from any of these items to 4 requires an extra special leap of faith. I personally see anything short of a full 4 as essentially being office work theater. Our company operates as a 4 tier and I've been here for going on 7 years now. We still have to get on a daily standup call at a fixed time every day, and I still have to participate in other scheduled obligations (mainly tech calls with customers), but the r…

Are you really worried about a co-worker drinking beer and dicking around instead of helping with a busted merge? Did you make a bad hire? That's the kind of hyperbole managers use to rein everyone in.

Better scenario is the worker is outside mowing their lawn at 11am or grocery shopping or something. They basically 'disappear' for an hour and nobody can get ahold of them.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#378

Post by eru » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

paulus_magnus2 wrote: post #310

eru wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hiring remote workers directly would greatly speed up the process of salary equalisation (adjusted for COL). What makes you think that this adjustments for cost of living would persist? Competitive pressures are towards paying for productivity, not for cost of living. > In the end after some 1-2 decades we'd wake up in much flatter world with perhaps reasons to not impose limits on labour mobility across borders. I…

> What makes you think that this adjustments for cost of living would persist? Competitive pressures are towards paying for productivity, not for cost of living. I think there is not a lot of competitive pressure, if there was, the salaries in Europe and Canada would already match the US ones. It's another thing that the COL is quickly converging, especially in big cities. Goods already cost pretty much the same (adj…

> I think there is not a lot of competitive pressure, if there was, the salaries in Europe and Canada would already match the US ones.

Not necessarily, if there are productivity differences.

However, I do agree that there _not_ being a lot of competitive pressure is a plausible option. I was asking, because your comment suggested that there was some market pressure, but just exactly calibrated enough to equalize salaries but leave COL adjustments in place?

> Hiring remote workers directly would greatly speed up the process of salary equalisation (adjusted for COL).

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#379

Post by eru » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

xtracto wrote: post #345

paulus_magnus2 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes you think that this adjustments for cost of living would persist? Competitive pressures are towards paying for productivity, not for cost of living. I think there is not a lot of competitive pressure, if there was, the salaries in Europe and Canada would already match the US ones. It's another thing that the COL is quickly converging, especially in big cities. Goods already cost pretty much the same (adj…

Developer salaries have actually rised here in Mexico in the last 12/18 months. A recruiter mentioned to me a 30% increase all across the board. And I know Mexican Tech Leads who are making 90k USD . I myself got as hefty increase (doubled my salary) . All working here in Mexico for US companies. Its slowly but surely happening.

Thanks for the data!

I am quite excited to see what kind of knock-on effects that will have on the rest of the economy in eg Mexico or India or Ukraine over time.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#380

Post by belval » Fri, Oct 29, 2021, 1:44 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #372

brtkdotse wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a deeper aspect to this and that is that meritocracy is a fantasy. People skills trump almost _everything_ else, including black hat people skills like dominating a room.

What I sadly learned years ago is that a bad idea presented with absolute confidence and certainty will pretty much always beat a good idea presented with caveats and answers to questions that start with "It depends...". The other thing I've noticed is that people who have good ideas are usually all too aware of the limitations and corner cases so will never present something with absolute confidence.

Similarly in research group the easy way to prevent criticism is to make your approach look as complex as possible, with as many math equations as you can cram and a healthy dose of lingo. That way people are too confused to ask relevant questions and management usually lacks the background to form an opinion so they will take the team silence as an endorsement.