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Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

economist.com

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Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#311

Post by joelbluminator »

EMM_386 wrote: post #62
VirusNewbie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been hearing this argument for 20 years. I was doing ASP/Perl programming while I was in high school in 2000, and I remember being told that I need to move into management because soon all the jobs would be offshored to India. Then in 2008 when the economy crashed I had one bizdev guy tell me that pretty soon everyone was going to be able to code with these new 'no code apps' and that I was going to be a fossil…

> I think about this sometimes, because while I did have a successful stint as a team lead, now i'm just a senior SWE. Things have turned out pretty well so far. I've only seen salaries go up. This is different because Covid-19 has shown to everyone that they can do their jobs remotely. And if they can do their jobs remotely, why can't an equally skilled engineer in a country with a cost of living 1/10th of the "rich…

But all big companies knew already that they can offshore, and in fact they have been doing it for decades. Intel and Microsoft were offshoring already in the 90s and perhaps even earlier. The only real "news" here is that you can have high functioning fully remote software teams. But the phenomena of offshoring has been happening for a long long time.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#313

Post by Hoasi »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #277
nirui wrote: post #210

> ... There is a more intriguing possibility, however. Work that is largely done remotely may be more efficient compared with an office-first model. I don't think in-person real-time communication is always effective. No, I personally think it's one of the least method of communication that can happen in an office environment when the topic gets slightly complex (that is, if the topic is complex enough for you to wri…

One reason I have found real-time communication ineffective is that it favors the narcissists and egoists in the conversation who are comfortable talking over everyone else. Guess what happens in this situation – Bob spends 40 minutes talking out of the hour's meeting about how his way is right, interrupts everyone, and by the end of the hour meeting the boss is saying “Well, why don't we do a proof of concept with B…

> Guess what happens in this situation – Bob spends 40 minutes talking out of the hour's meeting about how his way is right, interrupts everyone, and by the end of the hour meeting the boss is saying “Well, why don't we do a proof of concept with Bob's suggestion” simply because everyone is bored and hungry. Meanwhile, Jane had a novel and imaginative idea that went completely ignored because Bob kept cutting her off saying why it wouldn't work early on when she was trying to explain the concept.

True story. I've seen it happen over and over again, and it's one of the many reasons why I would be very reluctant to become an employee ever again.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#314

Post by nextlevelwizard »

jorl17 wrote: post #47

I am very happy where I am, but if I'm asked to start going at any arbitrary rate to the office (even if only once a week), I'll give them an ultimatum. Personal/Family life always comes before work, and I'm not risking that.

Just be aware that that counts as you giving notice and it might affect your options.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#315

Post by fendy3002 »

Cederfjard wrote: post #282
tchalla wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for complex topics I’ve found that a face-to-face conversation is often much more effective because it allows both parties to have a rapid back and forth to resolve misunderstandings or gaps in the conversation. Face-to-Face conversation can also happen remote synchronous.

I don’t really know why, but now I’ve found this to be less effective than IRL for some reason. Like I have to make more of an effort to be properly understood, and come away less certain that we’re on the same page (and that we have to follow up more often because there were indeed misunderstandings). At least I experience this with some people, less so with others. Not sure if this is due to something I lack, or if…

I've encountered this and I thought of some reason:

- it's easier to be distracted - it's harder to read gestures and expressions, worse with group meeting - with normal keyboard and mouch / touchpad even touchscreen, it's harder to sketch - while small, there is latency and it can be distracting enough

IMO it's easier if the communication is one way at a time, not both at the same time.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#316

Post by nextlevelwizard »

xchaotic wrote: post #207

„ workers view being forced to be in the office full-time as equivalent to a 5% pay cut” They clearly cant do the math. Commute alone costs more than 5%

Depends on your commute.

For obvious reasons people who have long commutes are most vocal about always working from home, but that is just another optimization/choice you have made in your life. For me commute doesn't cost anywhere near 5% of my time, but I have also made a conscious decision to live close to my office.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#317

Post by fearnotthroway »

I see a lot of the office politics players (less competent workers) are worried about their jobs going abroad.

Fear not. Your jobs will be taken by foreign (or local) workers with better skills anyway. If anything, try and become more competitive and brush up your skills.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#318

Post by brtkdotse »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #277
nirui wrote: post #210

> ... There is a more intriguing possibility, however. Work that is largely done remotely may be more efficient compared with an office-first model. I don't think in-person real-time communication is always effective. No, I personally think it's one of the least method of communication that can happen in an office environment when the topic gets slightly complex (that is, if the topic is complex enough for you to wri…

One reason I have found real-time communication ineffective is that it favors the narcissists and egoists in the conversation who are comfortable talking over everyone else. Guess what happens in this situation – Bob spends 40 minutes talking out of the hour's meeting about how his way is right, interrupts everyone, and by the end of the hour meeting the boss is saying “Well, why don't we do a proof of concept with B…

There’s a deeper aspect to this and that is that meritocracy is a fantasy. People skills trump almost _everything_ else, including black hat people skills like dominating a room.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#320

Post by pjmlp »

lend000 wrote: post #169

Not mentioned enough on this topic: not all engineers are software engineers and not all software engineers never need to touch hardware. If you plan to work on/with web frameworks, advertisements, data science, or pure CS topics for your whole career, then there's probably no excuse to force you to come into the office 5 days a week. But good luck doing that as a software engineer at a company like SpaceX, Tesla, In…

The irony is that while you won't do it as their employee, the same companies will happily hire offshoring companies that work just like that from the other side of the planet.
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