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How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

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Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#41

Post by cloudhead »

16s wrote: post #38
cloudhead wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But he's not talking about becoming a better programmer. He's talking about becoming great . Not all software can afford to be made out of crappy code either. There are many fields in which being a good programmer is the same thing as being able to write good software. The web might be the exception here.

The phrase "crappy code" is subjective and not easily measured. What you consider "crap" may be pure art to the people that produced it. Perhaps you just lack their perspective? Perhaps you've never had to write code in that language or at that scale? Perhaps they are just learning to code? The world is bigger than individuals. Some code may be "crap" to you, but let me assure you that your code is "crap" to someone…

I was referring to what the parent called 'horrible code'. There's definitely a little of both: some of it cannot be measured, some of it can. Code performance is easily measurable for instance. Code size and simplicity can also be roughly measured.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#42

Post by dcminter »

Chirono wrote: post #18
cageface wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the most productive programmers I've known toss code together in a horrifying slapdash fashion but somehow get great things done. And sometimes people with far more precise and mathematical minds just get mired in their beautiful architectures. The common trait I've seen in all exceptional programmers is an ability to keep a tremendous number of details in memory at one time. Most real world code is not lambd…

The common trait I've seen in all exceptional programmers is an ability to keep a tremendous number of details in memory at one time Would you care to elaborate on this? I'm a programmer with 'precise and mathematical mind' and I'd say that my one big weakness is exactly that: I struggle to large numbers of disconnected facts in my head at one time.

An interesting excerpt from Accidental Empires (a great read) where this is discussed in passing: http://books.google.com/books?id=QMrfJ-OVIp4C&lpg=PA321&...

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#43

Post by cloudhead »

agentultra wrote: post #28

Programmers are not born. They're made. You may have a certain aptitude or talent for software development. However talent without discipline fizzles out or produces wildly varying results. Talent is like that. What makes a good programmer, mathematician, sports player, etc is discipline. The love of the craft/sport/etc that pushes a person to believe that all the discipline and hard work is worth it. People are natu…

I completely agree, but at the same time, discipline alone doesn't make a good programmer. You need the other half.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#45

Post by cloudhead »

There's definitely a confusion between "product designer" and "programmer". Sometimes they are the same thing, other times not. So I don't think it's a useful metric. There are truly great programmers... Andrew Appel, SPJ, McCarthy etc who have no need or interest in making "products", yet that doesn't disqualify them from being great. Sure, communication skills are important, especially writing, but I wouldn't push the idea much further.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#46

Post by csomar »

I agree with Bill. From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that.

Not true with the current neuroscience. Well, in reality, that's what is happening. But do you know why? I'll tell you: Because I'm obsessed with programming. The typical programmer that is not obsessed will just make use of the skills he got while programming and learning. These skills are limited to the time he spent learning/coding.

I'm obsessed; I learn and code even when I'm not in front of the computer.The time of my experience expand. Add to that, the fact that I'm obsessed. I'll brainstorm code/ideas/tricks/google... to get that thing working. I'll make any opportunity in life to learn more about programming. This gives me advantage over that typical programmer that disconnects when he quits his job.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#47

Post by jeffreymcmanus »

cloudhead wrote: post #40
jeffreymcmanus wrote: post #37

The fact that programmers tend to not get better has little to do with programmers' inherent worth or talent. It has everything to do with how programmers are trained. Employers are doing less and less to train their technical staffs, which has fostered a generation of programmers who believe that the right way to learn something is by Googling it or experimenting randomly on their own. Of course you're not going to…

Part of talent is knowing how to learn the right way.

Maybe true, but "knowing how to learn" doesn't completely cover it.

It's absolutely possible to make middle-of-the-road developers into good developers through training and mentorship. It's just that many (possibly most) developers don't get opportunities for good training. They're expected to use their "talent" to figure things out on their own, which in most cases means Googling or trial-and-error experimentation. These are among the poorest, least efficient ways to learn.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#48

Post by mquander »

edw519 wrote: post #16

From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that. What a scary thought. Good thing it's not true. One of the many reasons I became a programmer was that the sky was the limit. Still is. Want to learn something new? Learn it. Want to build something cool? Build it. The only real l…

This is a hilarious remark:

We are not like basketball players or musicians or chess masters where only the extremely gifted (who also work hard) can rise to the top of their craft. With few exceptions, we all can.

I have no idea why, in the same breath as you disclaim the necessity of inborn talent for computer programming, you reaffirm that necessity for some arbitrary skills that you plucked out of nowhere. You have exactly the same amount of evidence supporting your claim that anyone can become a great programmer that I do to support the claim that anyone can be a chess master.

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#49

Post by jackowayed »

mquander wrote: post #48
edw519 wrote: post #16

From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that. What a scary thought. Good thing it's not true. One of the many reasons I became a programmer was that the sky was the limit. Still is. Want to learn something new? Learn it. Want to build something cool? Build it. The only real l…

This is a hilarious remark: We are not like basketball players or musicians or chess masters where only the extremely gifted (who also work hard) can rise to the top of their craft. With few exceptions, we all can. I have no idea why, in the same breath as you disclaim the necessity of inborn talent for computer programming, you reaffirm that necessity for some arbitrary skills that you plucked out of nowhere. You ha…

Absolutely. The first half of the blog post reminded me of this piece by Derek Sivers:

http://sivers.org/15-years

Re: How To Become A Better Programmer By Not Programming

#50

Post by bo_Olean »

edw519 wrote: post #16

From what I've seen, there's just no crossing the skill chasm as a software developer. You've either got it, or you don't. No amount of putting your nose to the grindstone will change that. What a scary thought. Good thing it's not true. One of the many reasons I became a programmer was that the sky was the limit. Still is. Want to learn something new? Learn it. Want to build something cool? Build it. The only real l…

>> Until he said, "So teach them!" He believed that almost anyone can learn and get good at almost anything.

I agree with this statement. But haven't accepted it as the fact yet.

You managed to learn "new things" quickly has not always meant "they" (as you said) will.

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