Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

dynomight.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 371 posts

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#121

Post by throwaway2331 »

soylentcola wrote: post #99
throwaway2331 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding on: the problem with vyvanse is that there's no way to mess around with the dosage to get it "just right." It's like a more strict version of extended release (EX) and timed release formulations (there's a difference!). Vyvanse is metabolized to d-amphetamine in your blood cells (the specific mechanism escapes me right now), unlike the regular non-prodrug versions which get "metabolized" first in your stomach…

Yep. It's why I switched from Vyvanse (lisdexamfetamine - basically just d-amp bound to lysine which is then metabolized into d-amp during digestion) to IR generic Adderall (a mix of d-amp and l-amp). Any unwanted effects (insomnia if I take it too late, etc) are almost entirely due to the l-amp, but the slow release of Vyvanse made it essentially impossible to titrate and my options were either to take a dose so low…

I had the same experience with vyvanse. Insomnia and ADHD medication are a dangerous combo -- one that's hardly recognizable until it's too late.

In my experience, I've had to run the gamut on all the "other" ADHD drugs (ritalin, adderall, d-amphetamine ER, etc.) and then prove they weren't effective, for my insurance to finally approve it. I've heard of some people even going so far as to get prescription meth (desoxyn) because nothing else would work! Strange world.

I've stopped taking meds entirely. I don't know if it's because I'm getting old, and even a "low" dosage (5-10mg) makes me feel very uncomfortable, or if it's because I've used a lot of different slavic nootropics and neuro-regenerative peptides (e.g. semax/NASA, BPC-500, etc.), but I just do not have any tolerance for it anymore.

Fortunately, this loss of tolerance coincided with the ability for me to function very well on simple caffeine alone.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#122

Post by e40 »

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #58
e40 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Talk to your kids and tell them not to use any pills, not even once. Can you elaborate? I have no idea what this is about. I thought meth was smoked.

Meth doesn't have to be smoked, you can just eat the crystals orally, but meth abusers uusally don't do that because it's not nearly as fun. The pills they're referring to, 30 M ( https://www.drugs.com/imprints/30-m-8232.html ), are oxycodone pills (a powerful opioid), but he's likely actually specifically referring to pressed fent (or fent analogue) pills that are made to look like real oxycodone pills. Or perhaps a…

> but he's likely actually specifically referring to pressed fent (or fent analogue) pills that are made to look like real oxycodone pills

That sounds like a really, really bad idea. Wow.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#123

Post by MikeBVaughn »

stcredzero wrote: post #68
notJim wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bizarre argument. All humans need shelter, whether it's a tent or a house.

What's cheaper than a tent? 1/2 or 1/3rd of a tent. That's enough if shelter is the only issue. If there is a need for the poorest to have solitude, there's going to be a proliferation in the number of tents.

Anecdata: I'm not on meth and I strongly prefer an entire tent to a partial tent.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#124

Post by perardi »

debacle wrote: post #78

I've looked into the logistics of "cooking" meth and it is a complex process that, were I not an expert, wouldn't create something I would be comfortable putting into my body. How is meth "industrially" produced? Is it Walter White-esque clandestine factories? Is it clever people in their garages? Is it done over the border?

The Atlantic has a decent summary. (If a bit of an over-the-top headline.)

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new...

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#125

Post by cyounkins »

Can anyone comment on how producers could be isolating the the 'd' enantiomer? Are they using enzymes?

Steve Mould has a great video [1] on homochirality in nature and says, "Why are all the sugar molecules that you buy from the shops right-handed? ... If you were to make some sugar for yourself in a chemistry lab by mixing some chemicals together, you would get a 50/50 mix of left-handed sugar and right-handed sugar." He goes on to describe how enzymes in nature exclusively make homochiral molecules, and since all our sugar is made by enzymes, all our sugar is homochiral.

Later in the video he describes how you can filter enantiomers by finding an enzyme in nature that 'eats' the undesired enantiomer, finding the DNA for it, and coercing bacteria into producing that enzyme. This seems quite complicated and potentially out of reach for a clandestine drug-making operation. Is there another way?

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKhcan8pk2w

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#126

Post by [deleted] »

wayoutthere wrote: post #115
dcolkitt wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of the effects of any intoxicant are culturally constructed. Alcohol is widely known for causing aggression, but this effect doesn’t seem to exist in cultures without that association. Nor does it exist in double-blind studies, yet the placebo group becomes more aggressive. You can start with two chemically identical intoxicants, and either by marketing or random path dependencies one gains a reputation in the s…

> Look at the moral panic over Four Loko. The same cocktail of ethanol and caffeine has been consumed as amaro and coffee by rich women since time immemorial. Yet it never caused moral panic until the “wrong type of people” started consuming it. You’re not entirely wrong, but a splash of liqueur into a small cup of coffee is pretty different from dissolving caffeine pills in tall boys of malt liquor.

[deleted]

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#127

Post by seigando »

tyingq wrote: post #114
wirrbel wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reduced inhibition does not support the thesis of increased agression, unless you define aggression to refer to "aggression shown". But I'd overall turn the 'cultural' aspect a little further even. I think I have observed a couple of times people to consume alcohol in order to be able to transgress cultural norms because the cultural norms themselves are 'parametrised' for the sober-drunk states. I.e. get into a figh…

>Reduced inhibition does not support the thesis of increased agression, unless you define aggression to refer to "aggression shown". I mean overall increased opportunity for violence. Less inhibition might mean I'm more likely to say "fuck off" to someone rather than just think it. Which could lead somewhere.

That's indicative of underlying aggression and can't be extrapolated to other cultures.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#128

Post by gpcr1949 »

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #56
curryst wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author does bring up l-meth. I'm taking them at their word that l-meth is an isomer of d-meth and is created in P2P synthesis, but that seems at least plausible. It doesn't seem to be common in the legal markets, and especially not at the kind of doses addicts would be exposed to. From Wikipedia on Levomethamphetamine: > In larger doses (more than 20 mg/day), it loses its specificity for MAO-B and also inhibits M…

> I'm not a chemist, but would we expect both isomers to break down under heat the same way? Or is the l-meth potentially being converted to something different than d-meth when smoked? Methamphetamine is very, very stable. It stays as methamphetamine when it's vaporized, regardless of whether we're talking d-meth or l-meth. > There doesn't seem to be debate that P2P processes create l-meth and d-meth, and that l-met…

> AFAIK the infamous "shake and bake" technique creates racemic meth

the shake and bake method uses "sudafed"/pseudoephedrine. therefore, it will produce d meth

> This is definitely true for meth, where almost every method yields racemic meth

not quite true, because the main precursor pseudoephedrine already had the correct stereochemistry in place. you would actually have to do effort to racemize that asymmetric carbon. But it is true that if your precursors are racemates or not asymmetric and you are not using some fancy asymmetric catalysis or tedious resoltuion your product will be racemic. An example of a racemic meth synthesis that does not involve P2P is direct amination of allylbenzene.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#129

Post by scythe »

dynm wrote: post #107
scythe wrote: post #41

One very strong reason to doubt that heavy metals, such as lead or mercury, play a large role in the meth crisis, is that heavy metal poisoning has telltale signs and symptoms that would not go unnoticed. Furthermore, we have excellent methods for the determination of Pb and Hg in the bloodstream, and there simply isn't any corresponding epidemic of heavy metal poisoning. Also, a nitpick: the author refers to the con…

> Also, a nitpick: the author refers to the condensation product of benzaldehyde and nitroethane, which is phenyl-2-nitropropene, abbreviated P2NP, incorrectly. He calls it "nitrostyrene (NTS)", which is the one-carbon-shorter homolog. Can you give a bit more detail about what's wrong here, and how it might be fixed? Are all mentions to nitrostyrene/NTS incorrect? This is used repeatedly in the cited papers, so I'm c…

"Nitrostyrene" is sometimes used to refer to the whole class of chemicals featuring the phenyl-ethylene-nitro linkage. So it's not wrong to call it "the nitrostyrene method". But the specific nitrostyrene that is a precursor to methamphetamine is 1-phenyl-2-nitro-propene, while the parent compound "nitrostyrene" is 1-phenyl-2-nitro-ethene.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#130

Post by perardi »

Bit of a tangential rant: meth is actually truly really bad, and I wish our drug education growing up hadn’t painted this nebulous concept of “drugs”, because there’s gradations of harm.

I’m approaching 40. (Ugh, I hate to admit that.) I grew up during the D.A.R.E. era. Just Say No. Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue. “Drugs” were this boogeyman, and whatever they were, they would turn you into a junkie instantly.

I have no idea how you’d study this, as I think this was a pretty much cross-cultural message, but I wonder what would have happened if we could have educated teenagers that, well, “we know you’re going to do drugs, they all have side effects, but some are not that bad, and some will absolutely ruin you.”

Because: I have done a lot drugs in my 30s. Pretty much the full club drug buffet, with the exception of meth and opiates. (Also never smoked a cigarette yet.) And you know what? There are varying degrees of bad. There’s this jaded sense that you build up, that you’re a bit bitter that you wasted quite a lot of your childhood education in D.A.R.E. I wonder if we could have possibly successfully pulled off harm reduction education in drugs, and given people a better set of mental tools to understand what drugs are truly bad, namely meth and opiates, and which drugs are quite honestly far less deleterious than vodka. (You cannot tell me, with a straight face, that weed is physically and socially more harmful than drinking.)

Post reply on HN