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The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

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Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#81

Post by s1artibartfast »

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #56
curryst wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author does bring up l-meth. I'm taking them at their word that l-meth is an isomer of d-meth and is created in P2P synthesis, but that seems at least plausible. It doesn't seem to be common in the legal markets, and especially not at the kind of doses addicts would be exposed to. From Wikipedia on Levomethamphetamine: > In larger doses (more than 20 mg/day), it loses its specificity for MAO-B and also inhibits M…

> I'm not a chemist, but would we expect both isomers to break down under heat the same way? Or is the l-meth potentially being converted to something different than d-meth when smoked? Methamphetamine is very, very stable. It stays as methamphetamine when it's vaporized, regardless of whether we're talking d-meth or l-meth. > There doesn't seem to be debate that P2P processes create l-meth and d-meth, and that l-met…

It seems to me that the Elephant in the room is not the racemic composition of meth, or purity, but composition and nature of the remaining impurities.

Do you know if these are well understood and tracked over time?

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#82

Post by elliekelly »

rkk3 wrote: post #55

This article seems to be fundamentally mistaken/misrepresenting Sam Quinones's Theory. P2P Meth started after Ephedrine was banned in Mexico in 2008 not 2017. > He suggests that new meth might be chemically different in a way that caused people to go crazy, starting around 2017 2017 is not a significant year, it's just the year of one of his anecdotes. A small town in West Virginia didn't have a meth problem and then…

The Mental Health Parity and a Addiction Equity Act increased access to this kind of treatment. The first interim rules under the Act went into effect for new plan years starting on or after July 2010. Many insurance plans (particularly Medicare and Medicaid plans in certain states) dragged their feet in implementing the required changes. This was problematic because, despite being a federal law, state insurance regulators are the primary enforcers.

In 2016 the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid finally started to crack down with their investigations and enforcement and issued compliance guidance and toolkits to help states fully implement the required coverage.

Is it possible the upticks don’t represent a new group of addicts so much as they represent a new group of people who are eligible for affordable treatment? It doesn’t seem terribly far-fetched to me that CA would have implemented the required coverage in their Medicare & Medicaid plans fairly quickly while West Virginia’s plans would have waited as long as possible to comply.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#83

Post by throwaway2331 »

notJim wrote: post #44
bteitelb wrote: post #29

A curious footnote: Sam Quinones argues that P2P meth is part of the explanation for the proliferation of tents in homeless encampments, because it causes users withdraw socially in ways that earlier meth didn't. This is what he means by it "brought you inside". Users want to be alone (i.e. in a tent) with their paranoid schizophrenic hallucinations.

That's a bizarre argument. All humans need shelter, whether it's a tent or a house.

I think he means that when you're tweaking on the "old meth," you'd be more likely to go outside and interact with people (many times, with hostility and aggression), while the "new meth" is more likely to make you want to stay inside, and withdraw from society.

In my opinion, this is a plausible hypothesis.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#84

Post by okareaman »

elliekelly wrote: post #67
monkmartinez wrote: post #31

The reason Meth use is going up is not due to Meth itself. It counter balances the effects of Fentanyl. I regularly go to Fentanyl overdoses where the bystanders tell me they ran out of "G" or "Glass" and simply overdid it with the "M30's"... Its a fucking nightmare. It used to be "meth" users would say..."At least I am not a dope junky using H." Heroin users would say... "At least I am not a tweaker." Now they are o…

Sorry, for someone who knows next to nothing about drugs can you clarify? I’m assuming “glass” is the meth and the “M30” pills are fentanyl? Or maybe the other way around? And, if you don’t mind, can you explain what you mean by “counterbalance”? I’m assuming it’s like drinking a red bull with vodka? Does it actually “counterbalance” chemically so someone could “safely” (for lack of a better word) take more fentanyl…

The short answer is that opiates kill by suppressing the breathing reflex. Anything that stimulates breathing can be used to counter act the effect of opiates. In the 70's people would force people to go on walks until their lips weren't blue from 02 deprivation, even if they had to support them while they walked.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#85

Post by Zarathust »

kens wrote: post #64

The article mentions the ban in 2006 of over-the-counter sales of Sudafed (pseudoephedrine). One of my favorite satirical articles is "A simple and convenient synthesis of pseudoephedrine from N-methylamphetamine". (The joke being that Sudafed is now hard to purchase while meth is readily available.) https://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume19/v19i3...

In Canada you can still buy that over the counter. You get id-ed and they keep a record of your purchases, but since it's now generic pills it is now much cheaper than it was before

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#86

Post by ceejayoz »

Zarathust wrote: post #85
kens wrote: post #64

The article mentions the ban in 2006 of over-the-counter sales of Sudafed (pseudoephedrine). One of my favorite satirical articles is "A simple and convenient synthesis of pseudoephedrine from N-methylamphetamine". (The joke being that Sudafed is now hard to purchase while meth is readily available.) https://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume19/v19i3...

In Canada you can still buy that over the counter. You get id-ed and they keep a record of your purchases, but since it's now generic pills it is now much cheaper than it was before

It's the same in the US; you can buy it without a prescription, but you have to have your ID logged.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#87

Post by kayodelycaon »

dynm wrote: post #2

Around a week ago, I came across this link here on HN that suggested that there's a new form of meth: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28938888 The theory is that new meth is based on a synthesis using a chemical called P2P rather than the old synthesis that used ephedrine. There are claims that this new form of meth is chemically different in some what that started creating schizophrenia around 2017. However, wh…

From what I've read of schizophrenia[1] it is highly inherited and unlikely that any drug would cause it. A sufficient amount of stress is known to trigger or quicken the emergence of schizophrenia in people already predisposed to it.

When it comes to studying this, you have to separate out:

* The high rates of drug abuse by people with mental illness.

* The correlation drug use with other sources of stress. Drug use may not be the source, but a result of the source. (But I think we can all agree drugs probably aren't happening matters.)

* Misdiagnosis of temporary drug-induced psychosis as a permanent, incurable mental health illness.

* Race, sex, age, and location, since this all affect the normal rates of schizophrenia for each population group.

OR:

* Show a significant increases in rates that can't be explained by the above. (If this rate tripled, it's pretty clear something bad is happening.)

Very few studies do this, because it is very difficult and there is little incentive to do high quality research.

1: I'm bipolar which is sometimes considered to be on the same spectrum

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#88

Post by dcolkitt »

dynm wrote: post #2

Around a week ago, I came across this link here on HN that suggested that there's a new form of meth: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28938888 The theory is that new meth is based on a synthesis using a chemical called P2P rather than the old synthesis that used ephedrine. There are claims that this new form of meth is chemically different in some what that started creating schizophrenia around 2017. However, wh…

Much of the effects of any intoxicant are culturally constructed. Alcohol is widely known for causing aggression, but this effect doesn’t seem to exist in cultures without that association. Nor does it exist in double-blind studies, yet the placebo group becomes more aggressive.

You can start with two chemically identical intoxicants, and either by marketing or random path dependencies one gains a reputation in the subculture for making people go crazy. You can bet that large number of people are going to act wild on it.

This is no different than the reputation different types of alcohol have garnered. Gin makes people mean. Whisky makes people emotional. Tequila makes people party like crazy. It’s all ethanol, but those cultural preconceptions become self-fulfilling prophecies.

In many ways that makes these rumor filled, science light, unsubstantiated media stories about “this is the most dangerous drug ever” incredibly irresponsible. The stories themselves create the cultural preconditions around encouraging more self-destructive behavior among users. This isn’t even just drugs. Look at the moral panic over Four Loko. The same cocktail of ethanol and caffeine has been consumed as amaro and coffee by rich women since time immemorial. Yet it never caused moral panic until the “wrong type of people” started consuming it.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#89

Post by sneak »

ceejayoz wrote: post #86
Zarathust wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Canada you can still buy that over the counter. You get id-ed and they keep a record of your purchases, but since it's now generic pills it is now much cheaper than it was before

It's the same in the US; you can buy it without a prescription, but you have to have your ID logged.

A few pharmacies weren't set up to take either a foreign ID or a US passport when the program started.

I ended up just buying it on Postmates, delivered, no ID check.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#90

Post by coolspot »

throwaway2331 wrote: post #80
wswope wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great writeup! Just adding on: Other key differentiator between recreational and therapeutic amphetamine usage is the pharmacokinetics: Vyvanse is the best in this regard - it’s actually an amphetamine prodrug that gets converted to amphetamine in the bloodstream over the course of ~2 hours, giving a very smooth release. Adderall achieves a similar end (to a lesser degree) by combining equal ratios of four different…

Adding on: the problem with vyvanse is that there's no way to mess around with the dosage to get it "just right." It's like a more strict version of extended release (EX) and timed release formulations (there's a difference!). Vyvanse is metabolized to d-amphetamine in your blood cells (the specific mechanism escapes me right now), unlike the regular non-prodrug versions which get "metabolized" first in your stomach…

Thank you for in-depth explanation. Is there a book or some website where all this knowledge of ADHD medication usage nuances is collected in one place? Like a missing ADHD manual?
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