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The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

dynomight.net

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Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#71

From a societal POV, we need a Government-regulated drug harder than Alcohol or Tobacco. Similar in function to Soma. Maybe marijuana can fit the bill. It doesn't make sense to 'outsource' production of narcotics to antagonistic nations or criminal enterprises.

By just about any measure alcohol is a "harder" drug than marijuana but certainly more broadly acceptable.

Having never done weed, if I smoke one will I preform worse at cognitive tasks than I would if I had a beer?

I know, comparing uppers and downers, not the same effects, etc.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#72
post #64

The article mentions the ban in 2006 of over-the-counter sales of Sudafed (pseudoephedrine). One of my favorite satirical articles is "A simple and convenient synthesis of pseudoephedrine from N-methylamphetamine". (The joke being that Sudafed is now hard to purchase while meth is readily available.) https://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume19/v19i3...

In the below podcast an author of a book about recent meth developments talks about the ban of Sudafed entirely in Mexico lead to a change in the market toward fentanyl.

Author and journalist Sam Quinones talks about his book, The Least of Us, with EconTalk host Russ Roberts. Quinones focuses on the devastation caused by methamphetamine and fentanyl, the latest evolution of innovation in the supply of mind-altering drugs in the United States. The latest versions of meth, he argues, are more emotionally damaging than before and have played a central role in the expansion of the homeless in tent encampments in American cities. The conversation includes an exploration of the rising number of overdose deaths in the United States and what role community and other institutions might play in reducing the death toll.

https://www.econtalk.org/sam-quinones-on-meth-fentanyl-and-t...

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's all very straightforward when you look at usage patterns. Often meth abusers will smoke multiple points across a day (a point = 100mg). As a result they stay awake for days straight, don't eat, and often will engage in enormously risky sexual behavior (this is the dirty secret of AIDS btw...it arose in the context of the "party and play" gay subculture where people would smoke meth or other drugs and have s…

The 'dirty secret' you refer to (1) is mostly wrong because partying with LSD was popular in the early 80s, not meth, and (2) the gay community is and always has been very up front about risky behaviors and how to minimize the risks. Just because you're unaware of something doesn't make it a secret.

All other literature have told me exactly the contrary in terms of attitudes concerning risk. So, do you have a non politicized source for your statements?

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's all very straightforward when you look at usage patterns. Often meth abusers will smoke multiple points across a day (a point = 100mg). As a result they stay awake for days straight, don't eat, and often will engage in enormously risky sexual behavior (this is the dirty secret of AIDS btw...it arose in the context of the "party and play" gay subculture where people would smoke meth or other drugs and have s…

Amphetamines also cause capillary vasoconstriction which eventually kills off your gums

Pharmacologically, amphetamines are no worse on your mouth than regular nicotine or caffeine usage. And while cigs & coffee aren't necessarily good for your oral health, they also don't generally cause major gum disease and tooth loss.

"Meth mouth" is mostly caused by neglect, not the biological effects of amphetamines. Long-term heroin & crack users suffer the same kind of severe tooth decay as meth addicts. If you smoke meth every day, but still somehow manage to brush & floss your teeth every day, your oral health won't be any worse than the average American.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#75
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By just about any measure alcohol is a "harder" drug than marijuana but certainly more broadly acceptable.

Having never done weed, if I smoke one will I preform worse at cognitive tasks than I would if I had a beer? I know, comparing uppers and downers, not the same effects, etc.

Depends on a few factors like what task, innate ability, etc. Which is not a non-answer - it is THE answer: in my experience, some things are easier on one than the other and vice versa.

FWIW, here's my definition of a "hard" drug: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29028924

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's all very straightforward when you look at usage patterns. Often meth abusers will smoke multiple points across a day (a point = 100mg). As a result they stay awake for days straight, don't eat, and often will engage in enormously risky sexual behavior (this is the dirty secret of AIDS btw...it arose in the context of the "party and play" gay subculture where people would smoke meth or other drugs and have s…

The 'dirty secret' you refer to (1) is mostly wrong because partying with LSD was popular in the early 80s, not meth, and (2) the gay community is and always has been very up front about risky behaviors and how to minimize the risks. Just because you're unaware of something doesn't make it a secret.

In the American urban gay community, neither LSD nor meth were nearly as popular as prescription amphetamines (pills) until the 1990s, when bathtub meth (crank) manufacturing really took off. They were all always available, but the pills were so cheap & easily obtainable that they were a natural favorite.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#77

The reason Meth use is going up is not due to Meth itself. It counter balances the effects of Fentanyl. I regularly go to Fentanyl overdoses where the bystanders tell me they ran out of "G" or "Glass" and simply overdid it with the "M30's"... Its a fucking nightmare. It used to be "meth" users would say..."At least I am not a dope junky using H." Heroin users would say... "At least I am not a tweaker." Now they are o…

This all sounds like high octane speed-ball (used to be just mixing some basic speed with something like Vicodin, or an Adderral/Ritalin + Vicodin/Percocet), but mixing Meth/Fentanly sounds beyond risky.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#78
I've looked into the logistics of "cooking" meth and it is a complex process that, were I not an expert, wouldn't create something I would be comfortable putting into my body.

How is meth "industrially" produced? Is it Walter White-esque clandestine factories? Is it clever people in their garages? Is it done over the border?

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#80
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's all very straightforward when you look at usage patterns. Often meth abusers will smoke multiple points across a day (a point = 100mg). As a result they stay awake for days straight, don't eat, and often will engage in enormously risky sexual behavior (this is the dirty secret of AIDS btw...it arose in the context of the "party and play" gay subculture where people would smoke meth or other drugs and have s…

Great writeup! Just adding on: Other key differentiator between recreational and therapeutic amphetamine usage is the pharmacokinetics: Vyvanse is the best in this regard - it’s actually an amphetamine prodrug that gets converted to amphetamine in the bloodstream over the course of ~2 hours, giving a very smooth release. Adderall achieves a similar end (to a lesser degree) by combining equal ratios of four different…

Adding on: the problem with vyvanse is that there's no way to mess around with the dosage to get it "just right."

It's like a more strict version of extended release (EX) and timed release formulations (there's a difference!).

Vyvanse is metabolized to d-amphetamine in your blood cells (the specific mechanism escapes me right now), unlike the regular non-prodrug versions which get "metabolized" first in your stomach and intestinal tract, and then your liver.

However, there is a set speed that vyvanse gets converted into free-circulating d-amphetamine, determined by how quickly (or slowly) your blood cells metabolize it. Unlike regular d-amphetamine, where the speed, and effect, can be "messed" with (or rather "tuned") on a variety of factors, such as:

0. Carbohydrate intake (regular, non-fructan and non-galactin, carbs get released into the bloodstream and trigger an insulin release response, which also happens to dull the effect of excitory neurotransmitters)

1. Stomach pH (acidicity == lesser effect, basicity == higher effect. E.g. drinking orange juice with d-amphetamine will lessen its effect, while taking tums will increase its effect, many times TOO much)

2. Certain liver enzyme inhibitors (mainly those in black pepper and grapefruit/pomegranate) will decrease the rate of amphetamine clearance, thereby intensify its effects

3. Caffeine (will potentiate amphetamine)

4. Personal physiology (not much you can do except play around with dosage and the aforementioned 4 factors)

Now, with the regular IR version, you can take more or less (1-5mg here and there) depending on your specific circumstances to get into the "right" spot where you're not overly or under stimulated, but just enough to be in that Goldilocks zone of flow.

However, with the ER version you lose the ability to get your "Goldilocks Dosage." You can still play around with the aforementioned factors, but this time you're restricted to a specific dosage now (say 5mg) and a specific dosage in some set amount of time later (say another 5mg, about 4-6 hours later).

Yet, with vyvanse you get even less of an ability to play around with the dosage. Take 60mg, and your body will slowly metabolize it to a set amount per hour, regardless of almost anything you can control. If that amount/hour rate doesn't coincide with your Goldilocks zone, you're shit out of luck -- and Vyvanse will not "work" for you.

There's so much more that goes into this, but I've frankly written way too much of an essay at this point.

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