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Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

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31–40 of 110 posts

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#31
post #4

This is great news! This is a wonderful project, and the fact that it wasn't accessible from Germany made me profoundly sad and angry. I hope the responsible copyright lawyers have a hard time sleeping because of this and consider changing their line of work. If you are blocking people from reading books in the public domain, it is a good indication that you are one of the bad guys. Even worse, they only blocked peop…

I ran into the site being blocked a couple of weeks ago. Changed VPN settings to a server in another country and had access without issues.

Just saying, the blocking was rather trivial to bypass.

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#32
post #16
post #4

This is great news! This is a wonderful project, and the fact that it wasn't accessible from Germany made me profoundly sad and angry. I hope the responsible copyright lawyers have a hard time sleeping because of this and consider changing their line of work. If you are blocking people from reading books in the public domain, it is a good indication that you are one of the bad guys. Even worse, they only blocked peop…

In Germany, the concept of "Public Domain" does not exist. (EDIT: It may exist 70 years after the authors death). IANAL. Besides that, even if it would, the books would not have been in the Public Domain. From the announcement: > In Germany, they are copyrighted based on "life +70 years" of copyright protection (so, copyright will expire after 2020, 2025 and 2027, respectively). From a legal and business perspective,…

> In Germany, the concept of "Public Domain" does not exist. (EDIT: It may exist 70 years after the authors death). IANAL.

Works are "gemeinfrei" (approx. "public domain") 70 years after the author's death, or 70 years after publication for non-natural persons holding a copyright (e.g. corporate copyright).

What you might think of is that there's no official way for an author to release works into the public domain in Germany.

That, and the life+70 idea, comes from the personality rights angle that underlies German (and other European) copyright: Personality rights are protected for 70 years after death, probably under the assumption that everybody who cares deeply about a person (instead of being potentially offended in some abstract sense) is also gone by then. Works are considered an embodiment of the personality of their author, and so they receive the same kind of protection. Just as you can't give away your personality rights, you can't give away all rights to your work[1]. Their commercial value, while more important these days, played a secondary role in the creation of this concept.

In comparison, the Anglo-Saxon copyright tradition (based on Statute of Anne of 1710[2]) cares primarily about protecting the commercial value and exploitation rights of the works, with little concern about how "remixes could attack the honor of the author"[3] or anything like that.

[1] Of course you can trade away commercial exploitation rights.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne

[3] To paint the German position with a very broad brush

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#33
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The German copyright law doesn't seem unnecessarily vague, simply life+70 years, which is why there are now two authors blocked (3 at the time of the link). If you have a problem with Germany's life+70 years then you shouldn't be upset with the lawyers, you should be upset with your government to change your government's copyright laws to match whatever the US does.

It's a bit more complicated: The US adopted[1] the international regimen (life + 70) with an exception that US statute of limitations from before 1978 continue to apply to works published in the US before 1978. So the US adopted everybody else's rules but has an escape hatch for older works - that only applies in the US and this is where the contention over these 3-5 works comes from. The US later extended the "70 ye…

[deleted]

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#34

What would have happened if Gutenberg had ignored the German court's ruling? Does Germany have any leverage over an institution that is fully based in the US? If so, does it mean that, as a hypothetical website owner, I need to understand and be compliant with every law in every possible country, or risk fines / imprisonment?

> If so, does it mean that, as a hypothetical website owner, I need to understand and be compliant with every law in every possible country, or risk fines / imprisonment?

This has literally always been the case. Some nations have legal statutes that they will not enforce a foreign judgement against their own citizens (such as the US shield against UK libel judgements) but you're on your own if you leave your country of residence. Plenty of US newspapers still block access to the UK of stories they feel legal risk from for example, because their owners would like to go on holidays sometimes.

Extra territorial enforcement is a lot more muddy than people think, but it's never, ever been the case that you're fine if you're incorporated in a different territory. If they can demonstrate that there's a body of people in their country accessing the site, then generally you are liable. It's just if the legal system considers that to be too much of a pain to worry about.

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#35
post #16
post #4

This is great news! This is a wonderful project, and the fact that it wasn't accessible from Germany made me profoundly sad and angry. I hope the responsible copyright lawyers have a hard time sleeping because of this and consider changing their line of work. If you are blocking people from reading books in the public domain, it is a good indication that you are one of the bad guys. Even worse, they only blocked peop…

In Germany, the concept of "Public Domain" does not exist. (EDIT: It may exist 70 years after the authors death). IANAL. Besides that, even if it would, the books would not have been in the Public Domain. From the announcement: > In Germany, they are copyrighted based on "life +70 years" of copyright protection (so, copyright will expire after 2020, 2025 and 2027, respectively). From a legal and business perspective,…

The incompatiblity of U.S. and German copyright law is not so much in the momentary duration, which in both jursidictions is 70 years after the author's death (exceptions apply to anonymous publications). The major incompatiblities arise from the regulations which were in place before the durations were harmonized (for the U.S., prior to 1978).

On an international scale, the situation is more complicated. Rougly speaking, the range for the duration of copyright is from "life + 50 yrs" up to "life + 100 yrs". Wikipedia has a list of these.[1] There are many countries where works from up to the early 1970s are already in the public domain that are still under copyright protection in the U.S. for up to the next 20 years. In principle, problems may arise if the country in which a work is published in the Internet sets a shorter term of protection than the maximum term in this list.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries%27_copyright...

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#36

What would have happened if Gutenberg had ignored the German court's ruling? Does Germany have any leverage over an institution that is fully based in the US? If so, does it mean that, as a hypothetical website owner, I need to understand and be compliant with every law in every possible country, or risk fines / imprisonment?

My understanding is it's complicated in the US, but between most other western countries there are treaties allowing foreign judgements to be enforced domestically.

>If so, does it mean that, as a hypothetical website owner, I need to understand and be compliant with every law in every possible country, or risk fines / imprisonment?

By the letter of the law, yes. The idea of a borderless internet never had specific legal standing, it's just largely a convention on non-enforcement.

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you should be upset with your government to change your government's copyright laws to match whatever the US does. Why should every government copy what US does?

At least in this case the US copied Europe with it's term extensions (Disney certainly weren't unhappy about it but the notion that Disney drove this is a bit of a myth). And Europe set that term length when the EU unified terms because it set it at the longest length from the member nations at the time, which was Germany's life+70 years. It's pretty interesting but the current global norm for copyright duration is,…

> the notion that Disney drove this is a bit of a myth

I thought it was Elvis Presley.

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#38
post #16
post #4

This is great news! This is a wonderful project, and the fact that it wasn't accessible from Germany made me profoundly sad and angry. I hope the responsible copyright lawyers have a hard time sleeping because of this and consider changing their line of work. If you are blocking people from reading books in the public domain, it is a good indication that you are one of the bad guys. Even worse, they only blocked peop…

In Germany, the concept of "Public Domain" does not exist. (EDIT: It may exist 70 years after the authors death). IANAL. Besides that, even if it would, the books would not have been in the Public Domain. From the announcement: > In Germany, they are copyrighted based on "life +70 years" of copyright protection (so, copyright will expire after 2020, 2025 and 2027, respectively). From a legal and business perspective,…

> And while I understand, that Project Gutenberg has limited resources and may have no desire to do the extra work of blocking works on a case by case basis, it would not have been difficult. Instead, they have chosen to collectively punish all people from Germany, which resulted us to be seven years without access, at least as long we did not utilize a VPN.

They explain their rationale for this and it is a very sound one, it is not about the difficulty to block, it is about opening themselves to lawsuits. Here is the relevant quotes:

> Because the German Court has overstepped its jurisdiction, and allowed the world's largest publishing group to bully Project Gutenberg for these 18 books, there is every reason to think that this will keep happening. There are thousands of eBooks in the Project Gutenberg collection that could be subject to similar over-reaching and illigitimate actions.

> [...] There is every reason to fear that this huge corporation, with the backing of the German Court, will continue to take legal action. In fact, at least one other similar complaint arrived in 2017 about different books in the Project Gutenberg collection, from another company in Germany.

I agree with their assessment, once the German court decided that all international treaties and public domain basically don't exist, and decided that German courts have jurisdiction over the US, it means that ALL works on the project are equally "illegal" (or at least many, they can't know which ones), and therefore nothing on the whole site is safe to be accessible in Germany. Their only option was to block the whole site or open themselves to uncountable other lawsuits (and limitless amount of punitive damages).

As to how they reopened the site for Germany now, I can only speculate, but I imagine that in the settlement they somehow got some kind of assurance from the big publishers that they won't sue and seek punitive damages for other works. With that the project decided that the risk of lawsuit is now low enough to allow for opening for Germany.

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#39
post #27

I want state here on fact, the "copyright" is an rather new anglon-saxon invention and was only later imported to Germany[1]. Interestingly, the era of the "land of poets and thinkers" and the economic rise of Germany was boosted by the fact - that there were no copyrights laws which hindered. Authors had to publish good and more work. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Background Quote from Wikipedia Printi…

Copyright is, probably, very Continental. In the late 15th century, before the arrival of the printing press to England, Venice had become the "capital of printing," and the Venetian Cabinet granted the first exclusive right to publish a particular book to Daniele Barbaro for a term of ten years. Christopher May (2002) The Venetian Moment: New Technologies, Legal Innovation and the Institutional Origins of Intellectual Property, Prometheus, 20:2, 172, DOI: 10.1080/08109020210138979. It was only later that England codified the concept of copyright.

Re: Project Gutenberg is no longer fully blocked in Germany

#40
post #27

I want state here on fact, the "copyright" is an rather new anglon-saxon invention and was only later imported to Germany[1]. Interestingly, the era of the "land of poets and thinkers" and the economic rise of Germany was boosted by the fact - that there were no copyrights laws which hindered. Authors had to publish good and more work. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Background Quote from Wikipedia Printi…

> the "copyright" is an rather new anglon-saxon invention and was only later imported to Germany

Hmm... it's not exactly "new" if it's older than the unified German state...

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